Nottingham Bus Lane robbery Options

[Lancaster]

Op stayed hotel in Nottingham and trying to drive south out of the city early (7am) got sent wrong way into a bus lane - reversed out and found way out eventually.

PCN followed yesterday.

How best to respond to the highway robbery Nottingham CC operate by making almost impossible to navigate the various signs and blocked roads. Any other angle to consider other than mercy plea?

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[Lancaster]

Well they're bound to reject but should hopefully supply some better photos of the sign. Bear in mind though that Nottingham, as far as I recall, does not re-offer the discount.

It reads that if I log Reps inside the first period of 14 days they will reply and allow me the remaining time (within my 14 days)Im almost sure to be wrong - anyway i have logged Reps now raising the access sign versus bus gate point as well as the circumstance - lets see what they offer if anything the discount

What it actually says is that if you get the Notice of Rejection within the original 14 day period, you can still pay the discount. They've added this because the PCN would otherwise wrongly give the impression that by making representations, you are immediately foregoing the discount, which is not correct (we've challenged them at the tribunal before on this point). It also explicitly says that representations do not put the discount period on hold.

On the other hand, if the discount is not re-offered there's nothing to be lost in going to the tribunal.

Ah thanks for pointing out.
So if I understood the point about an Access sign not lawfully creating a Bus Gate then I would be willing to take this to dispute if you think I have a chance (assuming they don't cancel). I'd need to understand what was the max they could force me to pay but I'm up for testing them If I understand the downside

The maximum you would have to pay is the full PCN penalty, (£60). This would be if you lose at adjudication. With Nottingham, unless you cough-up the discount, (and admit the "offe4nce"), it is a total no-brainer to take them to adjudication, because the penalty doen't increase, as CP8759 has told you already.

I'll go to adjudication then!
Sorry I don't live near the place - I'm in Hertfordshire - so if anyone could check I'd be grateful. Should we wait and see if they cancel anyway first? my Reps have been sent couple days back

[cp8759]

I'll go to adjudication then!
Sorry I don't live near the place - I'm in Hertfordshire - so if anyone could check I'd be grateful. Should we wait and see if they cancel anyway first? my Reps have been sent couple days back

You can only appeal to the adjudicator once you have a Notice of Rejection, so you'll have to wait. With no Notice of Rejection, there's nothing to appeal yet.

[Lancaster]

I have now received my reply, rejecting my reps. Reps filed 23/11 and their rejection 16/12 so 23 days. As the incident twas 8/11 and I have only driven to this City twice in 5 years, had covid etc my memory of where I drove and what I did other than get lost and confused by the roadworks and bad signs it is hard for me to follow the pics shown or make any sense of what they are claiming. If I pulled over at any point it was to turn around safely and try makes sense of the whole situation - my car was running all the time and I never left the car at any point. Help?





















This post has been edited by Lancaster: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 - 15:21

[Incandescent]

Wow, a major change for Nottingham; maybe they read this forum ocasionally. The discount has been re-offered for 14 days after date of rejection letter !!
So, OP, it's up to you, pay the discount now, or take them to adjudication. This would be a gamble, and I'm not sure how good the odds would be, maybe others can contribute.

[Lancaster]

If I go to adjudication do you believe the discount would be removed (if I lost)?
If it is removed, I’d think maybe they are worried and trying to get me to settle
Before adjudication! Just a feeling
I’m happy to gamble the £60 (£30 more than the offer in the table)
But I really would need and appreciate help raising as many points as the folk here believe
Might be worth raising at adjudication

I assume it will cost them at least another £30 to go to adjudication
So the fact they have been so petty with me
Makes me happy to cost them more

Does anyone know if I can ask for a disclosure under GDPR law
Of all the data they hold on me - my car - video etc. I would want all of that of course
If I can force them to do all the work to send that as well

This post has been edited by Lancaster: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 - 18:40

[Incandescent]

If you want to hold their hand to the fire, register an appeal at the TPT, but it will be a gamble over the extra £30. If you're happy with double-or-quits gamble, go ahead, we're all behind you in spirit ! I for one would really like to see Nottingham get a bloody nose

[Lancaster]

I'm up for that. appeal at the TPT. Can someone help me understand what steps I need to go through. Lets give them some work to do

When I lodge me TPT appeal here do I just include the appeal grounds I already made? or is there more I should include?

https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk

Reading the online TPT help I guess the grounds are
contravention did not occur as my only grounds?



This post has been edited by Lancaster: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 - 11:49

[Incandescent]

Your TPT appeal needs to be based on your original reps to Nottingham, but updated to reflect what they may have said in their rejection refuting your points. Also a number of points have been made on this thread, which may need incorporating in the appeal as well. If you produce a draft we can review it.

[Lancaster]

Sorry to be a bit thick over this very confusing (to me) correspondence.

Nottingham reply says

"a bus gate/Bus only street is a portion of the highway where TRO restricts use" and "has the restriction of 'Prohibition of Driving' with an exception for buses'
and
"at the start of the restricted area there are signs on both sides of the road consisting of a red outer circle, within which is a white background and symbols of a car and a motor cycle"..."it means No Motor Vehicles'

I assume this is the key point - they say I should have seen this and the point is not about the Access sign?or have I got that wrong?

How do I counter this exactly?

In my reps I stated

"I cannot see how the Access sign (shown in the video) is able to create a Bus Gate/Lane enforceable under the Transport Act 2000. I would never have entered a marked Bus Lane and this signage is very confusing"

I'm really struggling to understand how to change my reps wording in light of the reply from Nottingham

I don't recognise any of the roads in the footage - I've only ever driven through the City once in my entire life and am unable to work out exactly where I was when the PCN was triggered. I can't even go back and retrace my movements as I live 100 miles away

Of course I do know that once I had realised I had been sent off the road diversion signs, I immediately corrected myself, turning the car around safely and then returning to where I could pick up the diversion signs (out of the City) once more

Can someone help me put that together in a way that makes sense

DRAFT
I believe the contravention did not occur because the Access only signs do not create a Bus Gate/Lane
The diversion signs were very confusing and even when I strayed off the diversion I can be seen immediately correcting myself to return to the signs and try work my way out of the City centre where I did not want to be in the first place
I live 100 miles away from this location and cannot return to photograph the diversion signs that are in place - and the signs have likely changed in the meanwhile as the ticket was issued and the reply given almost 2 months later - I do not have the benefit of being able to provide this photographic evidence in my defence.

This post has been edited by Lancaster: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 - 11:01

[cp8759]

Based on the judicial review in the Oxford case, I think you would lose. A no motor vehicles sign which exempts buses creates a bus lane for the purposes of the Transport Act 2000, irrespective of the fact that some other class of vehicle is also exempt. The one case that was won on this point, Stephen Sutcliffe v Nottingham City Council (NG 09014K, 22 July 2016) http://bit.ly/2GrjU4F was won because the council had used a pedestrian zone sign, which although similar to the no motor vehicles sign is actually a different sign.

[Lancaster]

Based on the judicial review in the Oxford case, I think you would lose. A no motor vehicles sign which exempts buses creates a bus lane for the purposes of the Transport Act 2000, irrespective of the fact that some other class of vehicle is also exempt. The one case that was won on this point, Stephen Sutcliffe v Nottingham City Council (NG 09014K, 22 July 2016) http://bit.ly/2GrjU4F was won because the council had used a pedestrian zone sign, which although similar to the no motor vehicles sign is actually a different sign.

Thank you for the assessment - I won't waste the £30 then and chalk this up to exp. Thanks for all the help folks. Merry xmas