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Rejection of PCN challenge, code 21c
Camdener
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 14:54
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Hi (again)

While I was on holiday last month, my car got a PCN for parking in a suspended bay. Being naive and innocent, I assumed telling the council that I was away when the notice went up, I could not have possibly moved the car, and therefore I should not have to pay the PCN. Now I am older and wiser, I see that Camden do not let things pass that easily...

I will upload a copy of the PCN tonight, if required. In the meantime, here is the letter I sent as a challenge: Challenge letter, and here is the response from the council: Council rejection. Here is a copy of the photos as per the letter
  1. https://drive.google.com/file/d/11JYAULKhuL...ew?usp=drivesdk
  2. https://drive.google.com/file/d/114_NALnUyP...ew?usp=drivesdk
  3. https://drive.google.com/file/d/114SKuLztfL...ew?usp=drivesdk
  4. https://drive.google.com/file/d/111qLnMTddQ...ew?usp=drivesdk
  5. https://drive.google.com/file/d/10xA7rtk41J...ew?usp=drivesdk
  6. https://drive.google.com/file/d/11IS-g0YB-0...ew?usp=drivesdk

Points on which I think I can make formal representations:
  • They gave me my PCN at 2.03pm, when the bay was suspended at 2pm which is within 10 minutes of the suspension coming into effect
  • The sign for the suspension is not on the nearest post which has parking restrictions, so it's not reasonable that I should check it (see below)
  • (Potential) They claim that the suspension sign was put up at 6.17pm, whereas it was only printed then. It was put up at nearly 11pm according to their records, which I frankly do not believe!

GSV for where the parking suspension sign was: GSV1
GSV for where I was parked: GSV2
As you can see, I was parked right near a sign, but not the one which held the parking suspension so, even if the suspension sign had been up I should not have been expected to check it. Conveniently, the photos from the council do not show any such sign. I can take a photo of the location as I think the parking restriction signs are still in the same places as on GSV.

I don't think this is something which is necessarily helpful, but when I parked it was coming back from the Camden car pound, following my car being towed (see other post). Therefore, I definitely checked the signs when parking, having just received a high fine!! And that makes me disbelieve their claim of the parking sign being put up the night before at 11pm even more. Not sure what I can prove on this point though!
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post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 14:54
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cp8759
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 16:40
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The 10 minute rules applies to suspended bays, that seems like your strongest ground.


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Camdener
post Mon, 1 Jul 2019 - 16:12
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 17:40) *
The 10 minute rules applies to suspended bays, that seems like your strongest ground.



Thank you so much for your help. I will use the same wording as per http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1489702 when the NtO comes through. I seem to have an overzealous CEO in my area!

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cp8759
post Mon, 1 Jul 2019 - 16:19
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It might be worth also referencing (and including a copy of) Amy MacDougall v London Borough of Camden (2170123723, 24 June 2017) http://bit.ly/2XDNVGx

Have you received the Notice to Owner?


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Camdener
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 08:29
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 1 Jul 2019 - 17:19) *
It might be worth also referencing (and including a copy of) Amy MacDougall v London Borough of Camden (2170123723, 24 June 2017) http://bit.ly/2XDNVGx

Have you received the Notice to Owner?



I've received the Notice to Owner now, is there a good way of incorporating the reference you provided?

Many thanks!
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cp8759
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 15:09
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Well I've looked at the pircutes again and I don't think the contravention is made out at all. As far as I can tell, you were parked in this bay: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5442068,-0....3312!8i6656

The council photos of your car suggest the permit holders sign has gone missing, is this correct? i.e.are there now no signs at all indicating the restrictions for this bay?

Ultimately if you park in a bay, you're not required to look at suspension signs in other bays.

Upload the Notice to Owner so we can check for errors in the small print.


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Camdener
post Thu, 25 Jul 2019 - 09:31
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 16:09) *
Well I've looked at the pircutes again and I don't think the contravention is made out at all. As far as I can tell, you were parked in this bay: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5442068,-0....3312!8i6656

The council photos of your car suggest the permit holders sign has gone missing, is this correct? i.e.are there now no signs at all indicating the restrictions for this bay?

Ultimately if you park in a bay, you're not required to look at suspension signs in other bays.

Upload the Notice to Owner so we can check for errors in the small print.



Well I had a look and the permit holders sign is definitely there, i.e. right where I parked and not where the suspension sign was at all!!

Here is the NtO - thank you again for all the help I receive Notice to Owner
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cp8759
post Fri, 26 Jul 2019 - 21:21
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Can you get us a picture of the sign for the bay where you were parked? Ideally one facing this direction: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5442098,-0....3312!8i6656


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Camdener
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 06:54
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 26 Jul 2019 - 22:21) *
Can you get us a picture of the sign for the bay where you were parked? Ideally one facing this direction: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5442098,-0....3312!8i6656



Here's a selection of photos! folder
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hcandersen
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 08:18
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KISS.

Nothing to do with grace periods or adjudication decisions or multi-photo folders IMO.

Dear Sir,
PCN ********

I refer to the above and the NTO issued on 9 July against which I am making representations are on the following grounds:

The contravention did not occur
**** whatever else you want to throw in, if necessary.

As regards the first grounds, I was away on holiday when the alleged contravention took place, I therefore have no first-hand knowledge of the events and am primarily reliant upon your evidence. In this respect, I would draw your attention to your photos, in particular the first and fourth embedded in the NTO and two photos showing the details on and location of the suspension sign. I have enclosed these and numbered 1-4

Photo 2 shows my car parked at the beginning of a parking place - the transverse line indicating its limit being clearly visible immediately behind my car;
Photo 3 shows the suspension upon which the authority rely, including details of the suspended area which I accept I was parked within;
Photos 1 and 4 shows the location of this sign.

As you will clearly see, the sign is not located in the parking place, it being axiomatic that as the parking place terminated immediately behind my car and the sign was on a post some 25 metres behind that line(photo 1 in particular refers) then it was clearly not in the parking place, neither could it be considered to be within its vicinity. In fact it was situated in a different parking place completely.

It beggars belief that the council would erect a sign in a different parking place and then expect a motorist to leave their parking place to discover it. It is also puzzling why the council did not place the required sign on the post immediately ahead of my car, see photo 1.

In any event, the council's own evidence which they have disclosed with the NTO, including available on their website, shows that the suspension was not effected in compliance with the council's traffic order - which requires signs to be placed within or in the vicinity of the parking place - and therefore the contravention did not occur. The PCN must therefore be cancelled.

Would be my take.

This is not the Stopes Trial or a submission to the Supreme Court. Keep it as simple as you can.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 08:22
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cp8759
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 12:39
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I'd go with hcandersen's suggestion above.


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