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PCN from VCS Calder Park, Wakefield, Advice please!
notsorry
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 21:02
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Hi,

I've received a 'PCN' from Vehicle Control Systems for stopping (not parking) on 'their' road. Here are the scans

I've had a look around the forums already for advice given to other people and have come up with the following draft letter (mainly borrowed from other suggested letters) which I propose to send as a reply. Could some of you good folk take a look and advise if I should add, omit or change anything. If you need more info about the circumstances, please let me know.

----
Dear VCS,

Parking Charge Notice Ref [VCxxxxxxxx]: Vehicle Registration [xxxx xxx]

In my capacity as the hirer (aka keeper for the day in question) of the above-detailed vehicle, I write to formally dispute the validity of the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”).

Crucially, your PCN did not properly comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and you have therefore forfeited your right to keeper liability. Should you be of any doubt about this, I suggest that you carefully study Schedule 4 of POFA to understand the reasons for your non-compliance.

You state, in your PCN, that the registered keeper named me as the driver. This is not true, the keeper has absolutely no knowledge of the driver at the time. If you insist that this true, please provide evidence. If you wish to continue this dispute, lying at this stage will not show you in a good light.

Furthermore, you've sent a Parking Charge Notice, when the alleged contravention is for 'Stopping'. 'Parking' and 'stopping' are not the same. Clearly, even you don't know what the alleged contract is supposed to bind the parties to, and you wrote it!

Having personally reviewed the signage, it is clear that a driver travelling at a reasonable speed, within the speed limit, could not possibly read the wording on your signs, must less consider them, and therefore could in no circumstances be deemed to have entered a contract.

Since no valid contract exists, and you cannot identify of the driver, please confirm that this charge has been cancelled. Alternatively, should you believe that you still have a valid claim and wish to escalate this dispute, I am prepared to refer this matter to Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) on the condition that this is undertaken by an ADR entity which meets all regulatory requirements. I do not believe that the Independent Parking Committee’s “Independent Appeals Service” currently meets these requirements and so I propose that should ADR be necessary, this is undertaken by the Consumer Ombudsman whose service does comply with the regulations and whose details are available on its website http://www.consumer-ombudsman.org/

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your confirmation that this charge has been cancelled.

------
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post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 21:02
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notsorry
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 12:16
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Thanks for your input.

Here's the next draft:

----------
"I have received your letter dated 1st June 2018.

I note that you have not, as stated, enclosed the copy of VCS's appeal response.

I further note that you have not addressed the specific points raised in my letter including your client's liability for damages resulting from its misuse of my personal information. This has been the case in every response so far from both yourselves and VCS. I am disappointed at such a display of laziness and unprofessional behaviour.

I will be making a complaint to the SRA about your conduct. I shall also be making a complaint to the ICO regarding the behaviour of your client.

I note the statement that your client's position remains the same, and the invitation to contact you to discuss repayment options. Either confirm that the repayment options include "drop hands" or send a properly formatted Letter Before Claim in accordance with the Pre-action Protocol for Debt Claims.

I am no longer prepared to waste my time with this dialogue of the deaf and will note, but cannot guarantee a reply to, any other response."


This post has been edited by notsorry: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 12:17
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notsorry
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 12:50
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And today another roboclaim, factually incorrect letter from BW



Should I ignore or reply noting their continued auto-harrassment and pointing out their inaccauracies i.e. not only did I respond to their first letter, but they have replied to it!
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Redivi
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 12:56
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I am no longer prepared to waste my time with this dialogue of the deaf and will note, but cannot guarantee a reply to, any other response.
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notsorry
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 10:54
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 13:56) *
I am no longer prepared to waste my time with this dialogue of the deaf and will note, but cannot guarantee a reply to, any other response.


thanks, sounds good to me
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notsorry
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 14:33
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I've now received a Notice of Claim from BL, with the appropiate PAP forms and info. Obviously I need to return the form, stating that I don't owe the ficticious debt. Then I need to summarise the reasons why on a seperate sheet, basically pulling together everything in my previous replies. Should I be asking for any further info, for example a video of a car passing the signs at 30mph to show their legibility? Anything else?

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ostell
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 15:19
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I think a quick summary of why you are not liable, because of 14 (2) and out of time. I don't think you need any further evidence, your case is strong enough.

Point out that as the keeper you cannot be liable for any more than the original PCN, as prescribed in POFA 4 (5) and anyway the debt is denied. Legal costs, as listed in the letter are not recoverable in the small claims court, they should be aware of this, and actions are purely to bump the cost of the alleged debt, which is anyway denied.

Proceeding with this action when they know that there is no keeper liability is vexatious and unreasonable.
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Eljayjay
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 16:06
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The parking company's solicitors have not asked you for any specific information in their letter and you do not have to volunteer any information at this stage.

The letter before claim does, however, give you an opportunity to request documents and information from the parking company's solicitors.

So, I would take a slightly bolder line by responding to the letter before claim along the following lines...


Dear <salutation>,

Thank you for your letter before claim reference <their ref> dated <date>.

In reply, in order to enable your client and myself to narrow the issues between us in accordance with the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims, please provide me with:-

<tab>a note of the name and address of the owner of the land on which your client claims the vehicle was parked;

<tab>evidence of ownership by that person;

<tab>a copy of the parking contract between your client and the owner of the land;

<tab>a copy of the contract into which the driver purportedly entered with your client; and

<tab>a note detailing precisely how, where and when the driver became aware of the purported contract and accepted your client's alleged offer of parking.

As your client knows, I was not the driver of the vehicle at the time of the alleged parking event. That being so, I presume that your client is pursuing me as the keeper of the vehicle on that occasion. As I have pointed out on more than one occasion previously, Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 sets out the circumstances in which a creditor can pursue the keeper for unpaid parking charges. It is my belief that your client has failed to meet the relevant conditions in Schedule 4 and, in consequence, your client has no right to pursue me as the keeper. If your client believes otherwise, please provide me with a note containing a detailed explanation for your client's belief including specific references to the relevant conditions contained in Schedule 4 and stating how your client has complied with those conditions.

It is my belief that your client knows that it has no right to pursue me as the keeper of the vehicle and, in these circumstances, I regard your client's claim as being both vexatious and unreasonable. Naturally, therefore, if your client fails to satisfy me to the contrary, in the event of your client issuing a formal claim against me through the County Court, I shall launch a counterclaim against your client.

If, however, I am convinced by the documents and information provided in response to this letter, I shall reconsider my own position.

I look forward to receiving a full reply to this letter within the next thirty days.

Yours sincerely,

<your name>


I imagine you already know what I am about to say; however, just in case, using first-class mail, hand the letter in at a Post Office counter and ask for a free certificate of posting.


This post has been edited by Eljayjay: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 18:19
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notsorry
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 20:15
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Thanks, that's very helpful. I'll get my head round everything and draft a reply.
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notsorry
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 17:18
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So here's my reply, in 3 parts.

Part 1 - covering letter to BW

Thank you for your Letter of Claim Reference xxxxxxx dated xx xxxxx 2018.

Please find enclosed the completed Letter of Claim reply form along with associated additional sheets.

It is my belief that your client knows that it has no right to pursue me as the keeper of the vehicle and, in these circumstances, I regard your client's claim as being both vexatious and unreasonable. Further, the gratuitous addition of invalid costs, and threats of more, only reinforces the bullying nature of your client's continued harassment of me. Naturally, therefore, if your client fails to satisfy me to the contrary, in the event of your client issuing a formal claim against me through the County Court, I shall launch a counterclaim against your client.

If, however, I am convinced by the documents and information provided in response to this letter, I shall reconsider my own position.

I look forward to receiving a full reply to this letter.

Yours faithfully,



Part 2 - additional sheet for box D of the LoC reply form - why I deny the debt

I dispute the debt for the following reasons:

1. The signage is such that any driver could not possibly be deemed to have agreed to any contract.

i. The speed limit on this road is 30mph. The stopping distance (according to the Highway Code) at 30mph is 75 metres. Therefore this contract must be agreed 75 meters before the first sign in order to give a driver the chance to reject the contract, stop and turn around before passing the first sign.

ii. Before agreeing to a contract the driver must read and consider the contract. It would not be unreasonable to allow a driver 30 seconds to consider the contract. During this time the driver will also be driving and therefore won't be able to devote their entire thought process to the contract. Let's assume 50% of the time is spent thinking about the driving process and 50% about the contract. Therefore one minute elapses between the driver reading the contract and deciding whether or not to agree to its terms. During this minute a distance of 804 metres would be covered at 30mph.

iii. Looking at Google Streetview the sign at the entry to the supposed 'no-stopping' zone contains in excess of 75 words. According to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions Traffic Signs Manual, the chapter on determination of x-height (available on their website http://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tsm/tsm-chapter-02-x-height.pdf) The reading time for 75 words is 27 seconds (2 + (number of words/3)). In 27 seconds a distance of 362 metres is covered at 30mph.

iv. Adding the above 3 distances we come to the distance at which the sign should be readable. 75 + 804 + 362, a total distance of 1,241 metres. Using the calculation in the chapter of the Traffic Signs Manual referred to above, this calculates the minimum x-height of the font that is readable at this distance as (100/60) x 1241 = 2068mm. That's a little over 2 metres. This is the x-height that the smallest lettering of the sign should be. Since your client states that the largest signs they have there are 2 meters tall this shows that your client's signage is laughably inadequate.

v. To summarise this point: the only people with the superhuman eyesight needed to read your client's inadequate, 2-metre signs and agree to them before passing them are:
a) Clark Kent
b) Colonel Steve Austin

I believe the first gentleman works at the Daily Planet in New York City, though he tends to fly everywhere rather than drive (more info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Kent) and the second runs everywhere in slow motion (more info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Austin_(character)), therefore I suspect neither was the driver. Also, they are both fictitious, rather like your client's claim against me.

Finally, the sign at the entrance to the zone appears to contain 17 lines of text, assuming a line height approximately 3 times the x-height it follows that the sign would need to be 102 metres high and more than 50 metres wide to contain 75 words of adequately sized lettering. On the bright side, when planning permission is refused for your client's new signs they could use it as a full sized football pitch.



2. Your client has neither identified the driver nor have they produced any evidence identifying the driver, therefore it can only be assumed they are pursuing me as the keeper/hirer of the vehicle. It is my strong belief that the time limits stated in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) have not been met. This renders any pursuit of the keeper/hirer invalid.

3. The documents required to be sent to the hirer under POFA Schedule 4, Paragraph 14(2) were not sent. This renders any pursuit of the keeper/hirer invalid.

5. Notwithstanding the fact that the debt is wholly denied, POFA Schedule 4 Paragraph (4) states that the only amount recoverable from the keeper is the amount of the original PCN, this does NOT include any debt recovery costs your client may incur. Furthermore, as you well know, legal costs are NOT recoverable in a Small Claims Court.


Part 3 - additonal sheet for box I of the Loc reply form - the documents I require

I require the following documents:

a note of the name and address of the owner of the land on which your client claims the vehicle was parked;

evidence of ownership by that person;

a copy of the parking contract between your client and the owner of the land;

a copy of the contract into which the driver purportedly entered with your client;

a note detailing precisely how, where and when the driver became aware of the purported contract and accepted your client's alleged offer of parking;

a note containing a detailed explanation for your client's belief that they are entitled to pursue me as either the driver, or the hirer/keeper including specific references to the relevant conditions contained in POFA Schedule 4 and stating how your client has complied with those conditions;

a note of the date and a summary of the contents (including enclosures) of notices and other correspondence sent to the registered keeper and any other third parties involved, and the same for replies received; and

a note of each different x-height in mm, and the number of words in each size, of all the lettering on the sign at entrance to supposed "no-stopping" zone.



Any further advice or comments appreciated.

This post has been edited by notsorry: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 17:21
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bymlht
post Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 22:51
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Hi 'notsorry' - I have had a similar PCN from VCS Calder Park and have had correspondence from BW Legal. I wish to know if you have got on any further (e.g. won your case!) since your last post - thanks
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notsorry
post Fri, 3 Aug 2018 - 12:27
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QUOTE (bymlht @ Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 23:51) *
Hi 'notsorry' - I have had a similar PCN from VCS Calder Park and have had correspondence from BW Legal. I wish to know if you have got on any further (e.g. won your case!) since your last post - thanks


Hi,

Not yet, but I only sent the latest reply on Tuesday this week. When I get something I'll post it here.
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bymlht
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 14:39
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Thank you 'notsorry'
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notsorry
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:35
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The latest from BW...


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