PCN from NCP for "not parking correctly within the markings of a bay space" |
PCN from NCP for "not parking correctly within the markings of a bay space" |
Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 17:43
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 2 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,304 |
Just got back to my car with a ticket on the window for parking over the line.
When I first parked the car on my offside was slightly over the line and a bit squiffy. So I parked giving them (and myself) enough room to get in and out without banging doors. I didn't realise I was over the line ( 6-12cm) at the time. Should I contest this? |
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Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 17:43
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Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 17:57
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Yes. But you edit your post. The driver .... did everything. You’re the keeper.
Basic appeal. Then popla Even if you lost it’s ncp. No one pays them - they don’t try court. |
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Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 18:42
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18,751 Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Member No.: 32,130 |
Submit the usual appeal at the usual time, online from the registered keeper on day 26. As shown here on MSE:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822 Forget the 14 day 'discount' and follow the template process, not yet. At the right time (reason for 'day 26' delay is explained in the link). |
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Thu, 18 Jan 2018 - 11:15
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 2 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,304 |
Just to update this, NCP and then popla have both turned down the appeal.
I've tired to point out to them that i'd parked over to help the driver to the right of me and the snow had obscured the lines at the time I parked, I don't see how this matters but thought its worth pointing out to them. This was on the day that the snow melted meaning parking in the morning on snow, meant I got back to a car that was sitting in puddles of water with the lines visible. Doing a crap job of explaining this sorry. |
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Thu, 18 Jan 2018 - 11:20
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,508 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Did you follow the advice above?
Did you point out the lack of keeper liability? -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Thu, 18 Jan 2018 - 11:27
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Indeed, so you made a POPLA appeal on exactly what basis?
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Thu, 18 Jan 2018 - 11:29
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
What you have explained is that you have now identified the driver !!! It was not possible to comply with that requirement as there was no lines to view as the PPC had not cleared the snow.
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Thu, 18 Jan 2018 - 11:35
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Good job its only NCP. They dont do court
POPLA is not binding on you, OP. Just NCP. So losing there just means they can file a claim - but NCP dont do that. They lost horribly. However you turned an EASY WIN into a loss at POPLA, because you clearly rushed your appeal. |
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Thu, 18 Jan 2018 - 13:09
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,508 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Indeed, currently a very tame PPC for court claims. Although they do have 6 years to decide.
A POPLA 'win' may spur them into action... -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 12:41
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 2 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,304 |
I'd already sent the popla appeal by the time I had originally posted.
Sorry for rushing. What do I do now? Thanks |
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Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 12:51
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
What do you do?
1) Pay them 2) Do nothing, unless you get a Letter before action OR a county court claim within 6 years of the parking date Thats it. we dont recommend number 1, as we told you NCP dont CURRENTLY do court, they got their fingers blowtorched a few years back. We do NOT give a toss about "debt collectors". They have NO POWERS AT ALL. NONE. If in doubt, do some research BEFORE asking.... This post has been edited by nosferatu1001: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 - 12:52 |
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Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 10:28
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 2 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,304 |
Popla have turned down my appeal. Tho I'm trying to appeal their appeal.
Feel so stupid for rushing this, felt so clear cut from where I was tho. |
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Tue, 23 Jan 2018 - 10:37
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
What was their reason given?
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Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 09:15
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 2 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,304 |
What was their reason given? "The motorist has appealed on the basis that they did not feel the PCN should have been issued as they could not park wholly within a parking bay due to other vehicles parked too close to the bay markings which meant they had difficulty entering/exiting the vehicle. The motorist states they were unable to see the bay they were parked within as snow was covering the floor when they parked covering the bay markings. We appreciate the motorist’s difficulties; however, the bays marked are of an industry standard size and should the motorist feel that their vehicle will not fit complete within a bay they should seek alternative parking arrangements. The appellant did not park wholly within a marked bay which is in breach of the car parks advertised Terms and Conditions. Marked bays are clear boxed lines in white, as can be seen from the photographic evidence the motorist did not park wholly within a boxed white parking bay. If they were not there to be parked in, then they would not have been marked out. Were all of our customers to share this sentiment, and park their cars wherever they deemed appropriate, then this would pose a significant risk to pedestrians, drivers and their vehicles. It would seem prudent when the floor is covered by snow or frost to be extra vigilant and ensure the vehicle is correctly parked as per the sites Terms and Conditions, before leaving the vehicle parked. There is signage on the entrance to the car park and multiple signs located throughout the site. NCP also place signage close to the pay and display machines in order to bring the Terms and Conditions to the attention of motorists. The Size and the font on the signage is British Parking Association approved and the BPA have indeed praised NCP for displaying signs larger than they recommend in their code of practice. The appellant had the opportunity to observe the sites Terms and Conditions when gaining the information on how to pay and how much to pay for a parking session as the Terms and Conditions are stated on our website and on the pay and display machines on site. Paragraph 5 of National Car Parks Terms and Conditions clearly state it is important to the effective management of the Car Park: paragraph 5b states that you park within the limits of a marked bay. Paragraph 10.5 states The Parking ticket, coin chip. Booking confirmation or season ticket issued to you is only valid for the vehicle in respect of which it is issued. Neither a parking ticket, a coin chip, booking confirmation, nor season ticket entitles you, unless otherwise specified, to any particular space in the car park or to priority over other customers. If you decide not to park or are unable to find a space, you should exit the car park in your vehicle immediately to prevent any parking tariff charges from arising. It is the responsibility of every motorist to observe and comply with the Terms and Conditions our facilities are provided and managed under and by leaving the vehicle the appellant indicated their acceptance of our displayed conditions and equally accepted that a PCN would be issued for non compliance of the displayed conditions. To conclude the PCN has been issued correctly for a clear breach of the displayed conditions and NCP have submitted sufficient evidence to support the enforcement of the Notice. POPLA state decisions will be based on finding of fact; the facts are that the appellant parked in clear breach of our displayed Terms and Conditions and NCP trust that POPLA will find no reasonable grounds to allow this appeal. " |
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Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 09:33
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,508 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Popla have turned down my appeal. Tho I'm trying to appeal their appeal. Feel so stupid for rushing this, felt so clear cut from where I was tho. So you didn't challenge the keeper liability? The PCN was issued correctly as they state so was never going to win. -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 11:29
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
If the bay markings could not be seen 8at the time the contract was initiated* then no, it was not issued correctly
One more issue with these types of contracts. Checking compliance can be done an unknown time affter commencement, and in different circumstances potentially |
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Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 12:35
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Then the motorist should look diligently, whether we like it or not, and 'not seeing the line' is not even consistent with the OP's first post:
When I first parked the car on my offside was slightly over the line and a bit squiffy By their own admission, the OP could see at least one line. |
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Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 13:02
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 2 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,304 |
Then the motorist should look diligently, whether we like it or not, and 'not seeing the line' is not even consistent with the OP's first post: When I first parked the car on my offside was slightly over the line and a bit squiffy By their own admission, the OP could see at least one line. Only knew it was over the line when I come back. But writing it in retrospect I was over the line when I came back IE when I parked. Sorry I phrased it badly. |
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Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 13:14
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,337 Joined: 4 Jan 2007 Member No.: 9,897 |
What was their reason given? "The motorist has appealed on the basis that they did not feel the PCN should have been issued as they could not park wholly within a parking bay due to other vehicles parked too close to the bay markings which meant they had difficulty entering/exiting the vehicle. The motorist states they were unable to see the bay they were parked within as snow was covering the floor when they parked covering the bay markings. We appreciate the motorist’s difficulties; however, the bays marked are of an industry standard size and should the motorist feel that their vehicle will not fit complete within a bay they should seek alternative parking arrangements. The appellant did not park wholly within a marked bay which is in breach of the car parks advertised Terms and Conditions. Marked bays are clear boxed lines in white, as can be seen from the photographic evidence the motorist did not park wholly within a boxed white parking bay. If they were not there to be parked in, then they would not have been marked out. Were all of our customers to share this sentiment, and park their cars wherever they deemed appropriate, then this would pose a significant risk to pedestrians, drivers and their vehicles. It would seem prudent when the floor is covered by snow or frost to be extra vigilant and ensure the vehicle is correctly parked as per the sites Terms and Conditions, before leaving the vehicle parked. There is signage on the entrance to the car park and multiple signs located throughout the site. NCP also place signage close to the pay and display machines in order to bring the Terms and Conditions to the attention of motorists. The Size and the font on the signage is British Parking Association approved and the BPA have indeed praised NCP for displaying signs larger than they recommend in their code of practice. The appellant had the opportunity to observe the sites Terms and Conditions when gaining the information on how to pay and how much to pay for a parking session as the Terms and Conditions are stated on our website and on the pay and display machines on site. Paragraph 5 of National Car Parks Terms and Conditions clearly state it is important to the effective management of the Car Park: paragraph 5b states that you park within the limits of a marked bay. Paragraph 10.5 states The Parking ticket, coin chip. Booking confirmation or season ticket issued to you is only valid for the vehicle in respect of which it is issued. Neither a parking ticket, a coin chip, booking confirmation, nor season ticket entitles you, unless otherwise specified, to any particular space in the car park or to priority over other customers. If you decide not to park or are unable to find a space, you should exit the car park in your vehicle immediately to prevent any parking tariff charges from arising. It is the responsibility of every motorist to observe and comply with the Terms and Conditions our facilities are provided and managed under and by leaving the vehicle the appellant indicated their acceptance of our displayed conditions and equally accepted that a PCN would be issued for non compliance of the displayed conditions. To conclude the PCN has been issued correctly for a clear breach of the displayed conditions and NCP have submitted sufficient evidence to support the enforcement of the Notice. POPLA state decisions will be based on finding of fact; the facts are that the appellant parked in clear breach of our displayed Terms and Conditions and NCP trust that POPLA will find no reasonable grounds to allow this appeal. " there is no industry standard size |
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Thu, 25 Jan 2018 - 14:41
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 2 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,304 |
What was their reason given? "The motorist has appealed on the basis that they did not feel the PCN should have been issued as they could not park wholly within a parking bay due to other vehicles parked too close to the bay markings which meant they had difficulty entering/exiting the vehicle. The motorist states they were unable to see the bay they were parked within as snow was covering the floor when they parked covering the bay markings. We appreciate the motorist’s difficulties; however, the bays marked are of an industry standard size and should the motorist feel that their vehicle will not fit complete within a bay they should seek alternative parking arrangements. The appellant did not park wholly within a marked bay which is in breach of the car parks advertised Terms and Conditions. Marked bays are clear boxed lines in white, as can be seen from the photographic evidence the motorist did not park wholly within a boxed white parking bay. If they were not there to be parked in, then they would not have been marked out. Were all of our customers to share this sentiment, and park their cars wherever they deemed appropriate, then this would pose a significant risk to pedestrians, drivers and their vehicles. It would seem prudent when the floor is covered by snow or frost to be extra vigilant and ensure the vehicle is correctly parked as per the sites Terms and Conditions, before leaving the vehicle parked. There is signage on the entrance to the car park and multiple signs located throughout the site. NCP also place signage close to the pay and display machines in order to bring the Terms and Conditions to the attention of motorists. The Size and the font on the signage is British Parking Association approved and the BPA have indeed praised NCP for displaying signs larger than they recommend in their code of practice. The appellant had the opportunity to observe the sites Terms and Conditions when gaining the information on how to pay and how much to pay for a parking session as the Terms and Conditions are stated on our website and on the pay and display machines on site. Paragraph 5 of National Car Parks Terms and Conditions clearly state it is important to the effective management of the Car Park: paragraph 5b states that you park within the limits of a marked bay. Paragraph 10.5 states The Parking ticket, coin chip. Booking confirmation or season ticket issued to you is only valid for the vehicle in respect of which it is issued. Neither a parking ticket, a coin chip, booking confirmation, nor season ticket entitles you, unless otherwise specified, to any particular space in the car park or to priority over other customers. If you decide not to park or are unable to find a space, you should exit the car park in your vehicle immediately to prevent any parking tariff charges from arising. It is the responsibility of every motorist to observe and comply with the Terms and Conditions our facilities are provided and managed under and by leaving the vehicle the appellant indicated their acceptance of our displayed conditions and equally accepted that a PCN would be issued for non compliance of the displayed conditions. To conclude the PCN has been issued correctly for a clear breach of the displayed conditions and NCP have submitted sufficient evidence to support the enforcement of the Notice. POPLA state decisions will be based on finding of fact; the facts are that the appellant parked in clear breach of our displayed Terms and Conditions and NCP trust that POPLA will find no reasonable grounds to allow this appeal. " there is no industry standard size for ref the bays are in a multi-story in a city centre, bays are tiny. |
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