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Hillingdon parking fine for actually having paid for parking!
challenge_cheate...
post Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:31
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Hoping you guys can help...

Paid for parking prior to attending a meal at a restaurant. Realised time was running out, so went back to the car, moved it further down the high road and displayed a second ticket (to cover me for a later period).

To my horror, I was surprised to have received a parking ticket because I had paid to cover myself for the time period.

my Appealed got rejected and I have left some time before posting to this forum.

Can you help?

thanks






















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post Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:31
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stamfordman
post Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:42
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Post the PCN. Presume it was a code 7 meter feeding - don't think we've seen one of these for while.

Does Hillingdon do pay by phone (eg Ringgo) - you can usually extend parking time with this which would make a nonsense of this contravention.

Also you moved the car...

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:43
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peterguk
post Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:43
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Post up the PCN.

What is the offence on the PCN? I suspect it wasn't "for paying for parking".


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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:50
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well your past any chance of the discount unless they re offer at representations Ask them for the Traffic Management Order and get a photo of the notice on the machine

The one sign photographed does not restrict top up payment so not a bad shot. Post the NTO when you get that


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hcandersen
post Wed, 20 Dec 2017 - 08:03
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In their reply they said that the terms and conditions of use of the parking place (on which they rely to underpin the PCN) were shown clearly on the ticket machine AND that a copy was enclosed.

Where is their enclosure? This is vital info.

And we still haven't seen the PCN.

OP, if you want help, then this is a two-way street: you post requested docs in a timely manner, we give considered opinion.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 - 08:05
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DancingDad
post Wed, 20 Dec 2017 - 14:30
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Plus 1

We need the enclosure and if possible, what the ticket machine says.

I'd also like to know where you moved from and to?
Can you pinpoint on streetview?
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DJ Lexy
post Wed, 20 Dec 2017 - 21:56
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:42) *
Does Hillingdon do pay by phone (eg Ringgo) - you can usually extend parking time with this which would make a nonsense of this contravention.

The rationale is that your RingGo purchases are tied to the VRM, so they can enforce maximum stays or variable charging rates (e.g. first 30 minutes free, then £2 per hour). The same applies to these new-fangled machines you type your VRM into. They can refuse to let you stay beyond the maximum permitted time, and stop you repeatedly getting new tickets to get cheaper short-stay parking.

Old parking machines, the kind where you just put in your money and take your ticket, can't do this. That's why it's technically a contravention to extend your stay by purchasing another ticket.

Most of the time, councils don't care. You can park as long as you want, if you pay for the time. The only time councils care is, as mentioned above, if there's a maximum stay or where the parking gets more expensive the longer you stay.

It's always a good idea to remove the old ticket when you buy a new one.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 01:31
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What the council do and why is of no consequence. That you have a PCN is. Is it legal? For it to be so the council must produce a Traffic Management Order setting out the restrictions.

From the sign you have posted, even if they have an order the sign is inadequate to convey the restriction It does not inform that you cannot return within a set period, nor does it tell you you cannot extend time for a TMO to be enforceable the signs must inform you of the restriction


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DancingDad
post Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 01:57
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 01:31) *
What the council do and why is of no consequence. That you have a PCN is. Is it legal? For it to be so the council must produce a Traffic Management Order setting out the restrictions.

From the sign you have posted, even if they have an order the sign is inadequate to convey the restriction It does not inform that you cannot return within a set period, nor does it tell you you cannot extend time for a TMO to be enforceable the signs must inform you of the restriction


My only issue with that is that we don't know what signs were present where OP parked, where they moved car from and to.
And what is on the ticket machine, which some adjudicators accept as enough.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 11:00
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OP, help us out please.

You and only you hold the keys to this issue, and unless you communicate with us, we're blind.
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challenge_cheate...
post Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 22:32
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thanks for your response guys. Sorry been really busy.

Pics of the signage and machine:






Parked here initially; 123 Field End Rd, Pinner HA5 1QH or https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Boots+P...33;4d-0.3992182

then moved further down the same road.

Unfortunately, I have missed place the original PCN.

This post has been edited by challenge_cheaters: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 22:51
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hcandersen
post Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 23:10
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And the enclosure to which the authority referred in their letter is??????
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DancingDad
post Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:39
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Yes please, the enclosure.

A ticket may only be purchased on initials parking and prohibition against a further free ticket would seem to be the T&Cs they rely on.

Why did you move the car?
Where to? exactly.
Did you pay at same machine or a different one?
Did you pay or claim a new free half hour ?
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challenge_cheate...
post Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 21:46
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:39) *
Yes please, the enclosure.

A ticket may only be purchased on initials parking and prohibition against a further free ticket would seem to be the T&Cs they rely on.

Why did you move the car?
Where to? exactly.
Did you pay at same machine or a different one?
Did you pay or claim a new free half hour ?


The enclosure is not with me right now but is basically a picture of this:

I will additionally source it and post it.

To answer your questions:
- I was eating with my family in a restaurant and the parking period I had paid for was coming to an end.
- Moved the car further down the road (closer to the restaurant) and paid at a different machine.
- I paid for an additional 1 hour
- Please see the attached clearer pictures of the parking tickets.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
 
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DancingDad
post Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 21:54
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So I assume that in moving closer and paying at a different machine, you also changed parking bays ?
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Churchmouse
post Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 11:06
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 21:54) *
So I assume that in moving closer and paying at a different machine, you also changed parking bays ?

How are we defining "parking bay" these days?

--Churchmouse
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DancingDad
post Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 11:40
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sat, 23 Dec 2017 - 11:06) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 21:54) *
So I assume that in moving closer and paying at a different machine, you also changed parking bays ?

How are we defining "parking bay" these days?

--Churchmouse


Good question.

The simplistic is a parking place that is bounded by white markings as per TSRGD and separated from another by alternative (or no) restrictions.
Each bay having its own restriction sign(s). May have individual spaces marked within.

Councils, I suspect this one may, have been known to count all bays in a road or limited area for the purposes of no return or topping up contraventions.

In this case, we do not need to worry on "No Return" only if the second P&D ticket would be valid.

IMO according to the T&Cs of the payment machine, it must be. May not be according to the traffic order but signs must reflect the order if they are to be relied on.

From the rejection letter, I am assuming that the contravention is not paying/displaying but would be useful if OP would confirm?

If it is, I think an easy win once it is made clear to the council (and adjudicator if it gets that far) that OP moved the vehicle to another seemingly unrelated space and indeed payment machine.

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challenge_cheate...
post Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 14:30
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 21:54) *
So I assume that in moving closer and paying at a different machine, you also changed parking bays ?


yes

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:42) *
Post the PCN. Presume it was a code 7 meter feeding - don't think we've seen one of these for while.

Does Hillingdon do pay by phone (eg Ringgo) - you can usually extend parking time with this which would make a nonsense of this contravention.

Also you moved the car...



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 21 Dec 2017 - 23:10) *
And the enclosure to which the authority referred in their letter is??????



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 22 Dec 2017 - 00:39) *
Yes please, the enclosure.

A ticket may only be purchased on initials parking and prohibition against a further free ticket would seem to be the T&Cs they rely on.

Why did you move the car?
Where to? exactly.
Did you pay at same machine or a different one?
Did you pay or claim a new free half hour ?


yes, they highlihgted the 'meter feeding' line. Please see the enclosure attached.



This post has been edited by challenge_cheaters: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 14:45
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challenge_cheate...
post Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 14:47
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 19 Dec 2017 - 23:42) *
Post the PCN. Presume it was a code 7 meter feeding - don't think we've seen one of these for while.

Does Hillingdon do pay by phone (eg Ringgo) - you can usually extend parking time with this which would make a nonsense of this contravention.

Also you moved the car...


no, Hillingdon, do not do Ringo :-(
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DancingDad
post Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 15:19
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Right then.
They are pushing enforcement due to meter feeding.
They specifically show machine 32G on the enclosure.
The piccie you showed of a machine plate earlier showed 34G
Can you check machine numbers that you paid at?
On P&Ds or actual visit to machines.

Sorry about the questions but I reckon it is now clear enough to have a good chance of winning.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 15:25
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