Newcastle Airport PCN |
Newcastle Airport PCN |
Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 15:59
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 22 Nov 2018 Member No.: 101,080 |
Just looking for advice for the next step to take regarding a PCN received for dropping off at the Hilton Hotel Barrier at Newcastle airport.
My wife received a PCN regarding the above in April 2016. The letters have been ignored from UKPCC & then from Gladstones. Last month we received a letter before claim from BW Legal. After looking reading the forum I sent the following in reply: Dear Sir I have received your letter dated 29th October 2018 The driver did not contravene any parking restrictions Even if they had, the parking notice to which you refer is nothing more than an offer not to prosecute me under the Newcastle Airport Byelaws As the deadline for any prosecution was more than a year ago, such a contract has long ceased to have any purpose You cannot seriously believe that I had a legal obligation to accept the offer I suggest that you advise your client regarding the futility of any legal action I have now had the following reply from BW Legal Thank you for your email, the contents of which have been noted on file. Our Client is engaged by Newcastle International Airport Ltd to enforce the Newcastle International Airport Byelaws 2009 (Byelaws) and to (a) issue Parking Charge Notices (PCN) to vehicles parked in contravention of the Byelaws and (b) bring proceedings in its own name. It is fundamental to note that the Byelaws do not prevent our client from entering into a contract with a motorist. As such, any material breach of the terms and conditions (stated below) gives rise to a contractual claim which can be brought under civil proceedings (i.e. via the County Court). You are put to strict proof to the contrary. The signage erected at the Site contained, inter alia, the following terms and conditions: “PARKING NOTICE RESTRICTED ZONE NO STOPPING, PARKING, LOADING OR UNLOADING IN THIS AREA STOPPING, PARKING, LOADING OR UNLOADING IN THIS AREA WILL RESULT IN A £100 PARKING CHARGE NOTICE BEING ISSUED. YOUR DETAILS MAY BE REQUESTED FROM THE DVLA.” The signage situated across the Site forms a unilateral offer to anyone wishing to park their vehicle at the location. As the offer is a unilateral one, there is no need for the motorist to communicate their acceptance; the performance of parking in accordance with the terms and conditions is the act of acceptance. The signs are prominent and the terms and conditions are clearly displayed, and the motorist would have had the opportunity to read and understand them on parking at the Site. An objective observer would consider this action to have been done in acceptance of the terms and conditions. The terms and conditions (referred to in the paragraph above), which you accepted upon entering the Site, are clear and unambiguous. The terms make it clear that you should not stop, park, load or unload your Vehicle. The enclosed photographs taken by the Automatic Number Plate Recognition(ANPR) cameras shows your Vehicle breaching the terms and conditions as the Vehicle had stopped/parked in an area where it was prohibited. As a result of the breach, our client is well within their rights to issue the PCN and take all necessary steps (including bringing legal proceedings) to recover the outstanding charge. Accordingly, the Balance is Due in full. Is it best just to ignore? Any help would be greatly appreciated |
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Thu, 22 Nov 2018 - 15:59
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 21:03
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 22 Jul 2016 Member No.: 85,798 |
I received the same thing today which I posted in my thread.. I hope yours goes well.
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Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 12:35
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
'Controlled parking zone' is an interesting phrase. I wonder what they mean by that? How do they contend it is 'controlled?'
-------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 16:40
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 9 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,366 |
Hi
From reading the byelaws of this airport it seems they replicating/copying/following the decriminalisation of parking that other authorities use. Is this the intention of delegated powers of the Airports Act or should airports/harbours/railways be using those powers via Road Transport Acts? There is no definitive answer so requires a court to interpret or recommend parliament legislates As it may be easy to make their relevant private roads highways and then enforcement via Traffic Orders ut would resolve the POFA confusion as well as the delegated legislation issues. They need to prove that byelaws are the only fair way of enforcement of parking that is via the civil courts. The Airports Act may give delegated power to make byelaws for parking but I only see Road Traffic Acts for decriminalisation of parking offences. You may want to use this post as an outline defence. If so add full statute references including dates. I am not sure if there's a form to have case heard by a higher court because it's implications or whether on a counter claim it is moved as part of the allocation process. It's a vague recall of something I read . Again not sure but would it mean putting both threads here plus MSE together in a hearing and bringing the airport authority into the claim. ATB This post has been edited by chapinahat: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 17:15 |
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Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 17:59
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
????????
Here we go again! BWL1984, be very careful of posters with low post counts who have only joined the forum recently. If in doubt about any advice given, or if you need clarification, ask for other opinions from respected and experienced forum members. Concentrate on formulating your defence based on the solid foundations that have already been established, highlighting the existence of byelaws on land that is non-relevant under PoFA. This will be heard at your local county court on, probably, the small claims track. Please do not be diverted into counter claims or higher courts unless there is a general consensus across the forum. This post has been edited by cabbyman: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 18:00 -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 19:33
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#25
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 22 Nov 2018 Member No.: 101,080 |
Thanks for the heads up cabbyman.
Do you think BW will carry this through and take this to court? From what I have read it doesn't seem like they have as of yet in any of the Newcastle airport cases? What's shall my next step be? SAR UKPP and ask for all documents BW Legal will be using for the case? |
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Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 20:17
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
You have to assume that they will go all the way and prepare accordingly, even if yours is likely to be the first one ever!
-------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 20:20
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
You SAR UKPP and write to BWL demanding all the documents that they intend to use in court in order to narrow the issues between you. As they will have the documents to hand to raise the claim you expect the documents within 7 days
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Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 20:47
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
As they will have the documents to hand to raise the claim you expect the documents within 7 days That's a Forum in-joke BWL never sees any of its client's documents before it issues a claim It only takes the trouble to ask for them if it learns that the claim has been defended |
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Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 19:15
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#29
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 22 Nov 2018 Member No.: 101,080 |
I have requested this information via email from both BW & UKPP is it wise to send a letter also?
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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 07:26
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#30
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 22 Nov 2018 Member No.: 101,080 |
I have been looking through my paperwork and found the original response from UKPP to my appeal. Please see below:
Thank you for your letter of appeal against the Parking Charge Notice issued by us on 18.04.2016 Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you we have decided to reject your appeal for the following reasons: The vehicle was captured via CCTV footage loading/unloading whilst stationary in an area that is well signed with notices stating: “No Stopping/Loading/Unloading In This Area”. There are signs around the entire airport complex including at the entrance that clearly state the restrictions in place. Security at the airport is paramount and any vehicle parked in a restricted zone is immediately issued a notice by the CCTV operator. Please see the attached copy of the signage preceding the entrance to the Doubletree Hilton where the vehicle stopped that clearly states that the area is a no stopping/unloading zone. To drop off/collect passengers correctly in this area the driver must proceed through the barrier and enter the hotels official car park. Dropping off /picking up outside of the barrier in a clearly signed restricted area is not permitted as unloading and then reversing away straight into the path of oncoming traffic on a one way system is a dangerous manoeuvre. We have a signed agreement with the landowner which fully entitles us to enforce the notices issued at the site. We are under no obligation to provide you with a copy of this agreement, as it is commercially sensitive, but we will supply the IAS with a copy should you seek independent arbitration of your appeal. The charge is not issued under contract law and is not an attempt to recover damages for breaching a contract. The charge is an alternative to prosecution in the Magistrates Court for breaching the byelaws. As a result of the charge being permitted under the byelaws Genuine Pre-estimate of loss is not a consideration which is relevant. Therefore the notice was correctly incurred. Does this help my case with them saying the PCN is an alternative to prosecution in a magistrates court? I have aslo uploaded the picture of the sign they sent
Attached File(s)
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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 08:08
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
But that picture of the sign does not match any of the signs on the view of the entrance.
Thos signs of course are facing the road and not the are in front of the hotel. Rather stupid sign really. If there is no stopping then how do you handle a barrier that is down? |
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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 12:25
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 564 Joined: 15 Nov 2017 Member No.: 95,103 |
"We have a signed agreement with the landowner which fully entitles us to enforce the notices issued at the site."
So they admit to it... so require them to provide it as part of the PaP bundle. If they don't then you can invite the court to either consider it unreasonable of them and reject it if they provide it late - or assign such evidentiary weight as they see fit to it it if redacted out or never presented... |
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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 18:07
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#33
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 22 Nov 2018 Member No.: 101,080 |
I have just recieved back the SAR information requested from UKPP.
They have including the following in there cover letter Please be advised that, due to the age of the notice, we no longer hold copies of your appeal correspondence Is this something I can pursue? |
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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 18:23
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 9 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,366 |
Hi
Have found some discussion on railway byelaws and contracted parking services http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...4782&st=100 It has reinforced my understanding (POPLA no longer ajudicating byelaw appeals is one indicator) that there is no clear legislation on this matter for a county court judge to follow. The judge will be deciding on civil standard of proof. The claimant has to prove they can contract an alternative fee for an offence that cannot be convicted (if too late for Magistrates Court) Need to challenge right to contract (this is in principle in link above plus other posts) Need to direct judge to consider 'fine' as alternative to untried conviction Need to direct judge that contract terms are in byelaws. Is this equivalent to principle purpses of contract being in the smallprint ? Red hand rule on incorporating contract terms Are timings/dates are issue. PPC will argue offer and acceptance happened like regular car parking on private land. Sign and performance. Can this be the case? ATB This post has been edited by chapinahat: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 19:38 |
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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 19:49
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 9 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,366 |
You have to assume that they will go all the way and prepare accordingly, even if yours is likely to be the first one ever! Robin Hood Airport stopping taken to small claims as posted on this forum . Found for PPC . Similar situation. Similar byelaws I have looked and expect fundamentals the same. On reading about that case I started reading into the recent cases decriminalisation of parking offences. Robin Hood Airport byelaws less specfic on decriminalisation . This post has been edited by chapinahat: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:26 |
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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:23
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Need to direct judge that contract terms are in byelaws. Is this equivalent to principle purpses of contract being in the smallprint ? Red hand rule on incorporating contract terms How on earth cancontract terms be in byelaws? You either obey a law or you don't. How can you contract into or out of a byelaw? OP, ignore these inane comments, as usual. -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 20:45
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 9 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,366 |
Hi
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=5925855 Same airport claim in prigress through MCOL. Not even the first at Newcastle Airport. ATB |
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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 21:01
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 9 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,366 |
Need to direct judge that contract terms are in byelaws. Is this equivalent to principle purpses of contract being in the smallprint ? Red hand rule on incorporating contract terms How on earth cancontract terms be in byelaws? You either obey a law or you don't. How can you contract into or out of a byelaw? OP, ignore these inane comments, as usual. Hi Thats why it could go in the defence.To ask the court" How can byelaws be used to make the terms of a contract when such incorporating is contrary to the Law of Contract. ATB |
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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 23:07
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,887 Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Member No.: 78,368 |
They say "We have a signed agreement with the landowner"
From the copy of a contract we saw they had a contract with Newcastle Park and Fly not Newcastle International Airport. And that contract said you can issue a Penalty Notice. |
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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 08:07
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
"The charge is not issued under contract law and is not an attempt to recover damages for breaching a contract. The charge is an alternative to prosecution in the Magistrates Court for breaching the byelaws. "
They have therefore admitted: 1) There was no contract 2) This was an alternative to prosecution 3) there is therefore no DEBT alleged and confirmed by them 4) Refusing an offer to avoid prosecution canot possibly create a debt, sa you are free to reject such an offer 5) This above appela is crucial to your defence Yes they can have deleted your appeal but its not going to look good for them. |
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