Yellow box junction cctv ticket, Box junction Options

[Bach]

Hi again

I received a ticket through the post a few weeks ago.

I stopped in a box junction.

I viewed the cctv footage today. I stopped to give way to a vehicle pulling out of the side road, that vehicle then took the vacant space I was going to drive into if I didn't give him way.

I was in the box junction but I didn't actually block the flow of traffic, no cars were turning into the road I had blocked.

Thanks in advance guys











This post has been edited by Bach: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 21:20

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[PASTMYBEST]

What is the date of notice?

[DancingDad]

Hmmmm
Stopping is not the contravention
Stopping due to stationary traffic is.

While there seems no question that there was a space when you entered the box and that you stopped from choice, not necessity, I'm wondering how an adjudicator would decide on you remaining stationary??

[stamfordman]

The car that pulled out also stopped with clear space ahead - this should be a factor as you are entitled to look further ahead when judging a box.

Do you have the video or did you have to go to their office?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 22:20

[peterguk]

The car that pulled out also stopped with clear space ahead

How can you tell from a single photo?

[Bach]

What is the date of notice?

08/02/2017, I had an appointment today to view the footage

Hmmmm
Stopping is not the contravention
Stopping due to stationary traffic is.

While there seems no question that there was a space when you entered the box and that you stopped from choice, not necessity, I'm wondering how an adjudicator would decide on you remaining stationary??

Traffic was moving when I entered the box junction, it definitely wasn't stationary.

Thanks

The car that pulled out also stopped with clear space ahead - this should be a factor as you are entitled to look further ahead when judging a box.

Do you have the video or did you have to go to their office?

I went to their office today, they wouldn't allow me to record the footage

[stamfordman]

The car that pulled out also stopped with clear space ahead

How can you tell from a single photo?

I can't - but if that car had continued down the empty lane then the OP had an empty lane to drive into...

I suspect the OP like many drivers was rooted in staying in their lane and not getting out of the box. Looks like the right lane is a right turn lane but better to be in that than in the box...

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 23:01

[DancingDad]

...........Traffic was moving when I entered the box junction, it definitely wasn't stationary.

Thanks

It isn't a case that traffic was moving, it is whether or not there was a clear exit when you entered.
Then whether you stopped due to stationary traffic.

[Bach]

The car that pulled out also stopped with clear space ahead

How can you tell from a single photo?

I can't - but if that car had continued down the empty lane then the OP had an empty lane to drive into...

I suspect the OP like many drivers was rooted in staying in their lane and not getting out of the box. Looks like the right lane is a right turn lane but better to be in that than in the box...

In the cctv footage, it showed a few cars build up in front of the white van I gave way to. I couldn't tell what the build up was due to to the camera didn't show that angle.

This post has been edited by Bach: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 23:16

[stamfordman]

The car that pulled out also stopped with clear space ahead

How can you tell from a single photo?

I can't - but if that car had continued down the empty lane then the OP had an empty lane to drive into...

I suspect the OP like many drivers was rooted in staying in their lane and not getting out of the box. Looks like the right lane is a right turn lane but better to be in that than in the box...

In the cctv footage, it showed a few cars build up in front of the white van I gave way to. I couldn't tell what the build up was due to as the camera didn't show that angle.

Ah it was the van - I assumed the small car turning into the right lane. As I said, you should have driven into the right lane rather than stop. Raises the question as to whether an adjudicator would ignore the empty right lane and consider only the merits of your left lane space being taken. Or you could say your exit was not blocked as the right lane was clear...



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 23:21

[Bach]

The car that pulled out also stopped with clear space ahead

How can you tell from a single photo?

I can't - but if that car had continued down the empty lane then the OP had an empty lane to drive into...

I suspect the OP like many drivers was rooted in staying in their lane and not getting out of the box. Looks like the right lane is a right turn lane but better to be in that than in the box...

In the cctv footage, it showed a few cars build up in front of the white van I gave way to. I couldn't tell what the build up was due to as the camera didn't show that angle.

Ah it was the van - I assumed the small car turning into the right lane. As I said, you should have driven into the right lane rather than stop. Raises the question as to whether an adjudicator would ignore the empty right lane and consider only the merits of your left lane space being taken. Or you could say your exit was not blocked as the right lane was clear...

Yeah, it was the van. Sorry, should've mentioned it earlier.

If I say my exit wasn't blocked as the right lane was clear, how would that help me?

[stamfordman]

Yeah, it was the van. Sorry, should've mentioned it earlier.

If I say my exit wasn't blocked as the right lane was clear, how would that help me?

I'm not sure - hopefully we can ignore the right lane and just focus on your space being taken on the left.

To be fair the right lane is marked as a right turn but it's not compulsory:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5706811,0...#33;6m1!1e1

The idea though is that the contravention only occurs if your exit is blocked by stationary vehicles, as DD says. Technically you had an exit.

[Bach]

Yeah, it was the van. Sorry, should've mentioned it earlier.

If I say my exit wasn't blocked as the right lane was clear, how would that help me?

I'm not sure - hopefully we can ignore the right lane and just focus on your space being taken on the left.

To be fair the right lane is marked as a right turn but it's not compulsory:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5706811,0...#33;6m1!1e1

The idea though is that the contravention only occurs if your exit is blocked by stationary vehicles, as DD says. Technically you had an exit.

Ok great, so at least I've got a leg to stand on.

And I was just making myself seem like a nice driver when saying " I gave the van driver way"

I honestly can't remember whether I gave him way or he pulled out.

I'm guessing my case would be that bit stronger if he pulled out in front of me, taking the slave I was driving towards

[Incandescent]

An adjudicator will consider why, having given way to the van, you drove into the box, or where you already in it ?

[astralite]

Unfortunately it’s most unlikely that the argument that there was ‘space in another lane’ would prevail. I don’t have the adjudication references to hand but will try to post them later.
It’s very poor of them not to allow you a recording as the video is the essential evidence and it’s almost impossible to assess and come to a view without studying it, often playing it several times. I’d ask them in writing to send you a DVD copy.

What is the date on the PCN?
How long were you stopped?
I’m also thinking maybe inadequate description of the location as it’s a long road.

[Bach]

An adjudicator will consider why, having given way to the van, you drove into the box, or where you already in it ?

I can't remember if I was in the box when the van pulled out.

If the buggers let me record the footage, I could've looked back to it.

I'm not sure what to do now

Unfortunately it’s most unlikely that the argument that there was ‘space in another lane’ would prevail. I don’t have the adjudication references to hand but will try to post them later.
It’s very poor of them not to allow you a recording as the video is the essential evidence and it’s almost impossible to assess and come to a view without studying it, often playing it several times. I’d ask them in writing to send you a DVD copy.

What is the date on the PCN?
How long were you stopped?
I’m also thinking maybe inadequate description of the location as it’s a long road.

I know, it's terrible that they didn't allow me to record off the screen, especially if they don't give copies.

I have 10 days to appeal from the 16th (when I viewed the footage) so my appeal has to be in by 26 March

I was stopped for 14 seconds,

The date on the ticket is 08 Feb 2017.

The location is, Chadwell heath high rd, Romford, where it meets Chadwell heath lane

Thanks

[PASTMYBEST]

Only you have seen the video, so only you know what happened.

if there was a space on the left you could have moved into, but the van came from the side road and took it you would likely win as you did not stop in the box due to stationary traffic

[Bach]

Only you have seen the video, so only you know what happened.

if there was a space on the left you could have moved into, but the van came from the side road and took it you would likely win as you did not stop in the box due to stationary traffic

Yrs that was the case, the van pulled out and took the space I was going to drive into.

I'll put that in the appeal

Cheers

[Hippocrates]

Please show the whole PCN.

[Bach]

Please show the whole PCN.

Here you go mate