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PARKING TICKET - CIVIL ENFORCEMENT LTD
timbuktumaster
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 14:43
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Hi

I'm sorry if this has been asked before - I've spent the last 2 hours on this website and I'm still unsure of what I should do.

The driver of a vehicle registered with me parked in a carpark monitored by cameras. No parking ticket was purchased - apparently it was dark, signs were not obvious and the driver thought parking charges didn't apply at night. I received a Parking Charge Notice from Civil Enforcement LTD. I am aware of several people who have received similar charges and had their appeal rejected by POPLA. Today is the last day I can pay and receive the reduced amount - should I just pay or should i appeal?
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post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 14:43
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Redivi
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 14:53
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Nobody on this Forum pays Civil Enforcement
They don't lose against the company at POPLA either

Challenge the PCN AS THE KEEPER on the grounds that the signs were unlit

Save the real appeal for POPLA

This post has been edited by Redivi: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 14:53
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timbuktumaster
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 15:07
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thank you so much


Is this OK for the appeal to Civil Enforcement?

I am the keeper of the above vehicle.

I am appealing against this charge because at the time of the alleged contravention (19.48), it was dark and the signage requesting payment in the carpark was not clearly visible to the driver.
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timbuktumaster
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 17:36
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Sorry, the above post was a bit confusing. In the appeal that I am sending to Civil Enforcement, does this sound ok?

"I am the keeper of the above vehicle.
I am appealing against this charge because at the time of the alleged contravention (19.48), it was dark and the signage requesting payment in the carpark was not clearly visible to the driver."

or do i need to go into more detail?

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ostell
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 20:22
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So post up the PCN for others to look at
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timbuktumaster
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 11:00
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PCN here



This post has been edited by timbuktumaster: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 11:56
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Redivi
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 11:20
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Remove that picture immediately

You've left the PCN reference in two places

Parking companies follow this Forum and will use any information they find

The location may come under the Falmouth Harbour Byelaws that include a section on motor vehicles
If so, CEL has no right to recover payment from the registered keeper if it doesn't know who was driving
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timbuktumaster
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 12:00
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This is what I found on the bye-laws section of Falmouth Harbour relating to parking

Unauthorised parking of vehicles
42. (1) Any person leaving a vehicle in a parking place on harbour premises shall
display on that vehicle a ticket issued by the Commissioners authorising the
parking of that vehicle during such time as may be specified on that ticket.
(2) A person shall not leave a vehicle in a parking place on the harbour
premises for longer than the time specified on the ticket issued in respect of
that vehicle.

- what are the implications of this?
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timbuktumaster
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 12:15
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OK so i've done a bit more research and understand now that the byelaws mean that PPC cannot give responsiblity for the ticket to the keeper if the driver is not known, and the keeper is not required to identifu the driver. I've phoned Falmouth Harbour Commissioners and they confirmed that that area is covered by them and by bye-laws. What do I do now please? Should I appeal to CE and say I was not driving the car?
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jennywrenliverpo...
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 12:26
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Hello, I'm so sorry if this is the wrong place to post this - I've never used a chat forum before.

I'm really struggling here as there seems to be so much information and differences in opinions on how to handle these tickets and now I think I'm about to be given a CCJ.

I parked in a street - which was always fine to park in, been parking there for over a decade - however a few weeks later I received a parking fine as a company had apparently now put signs up on the wall.

Lots of these sites say ignore it - they can't pursue you under contract law etc... So that's what I did.

However - just before Christmas they sent me what I think is the start of CCJ proceedings.

I had to fill in a form saying if I accept it - reject it - admit partial responsibility - or will pay the fine - or part of the fine...

Again after looking through MANY forums on this - I said that yes, I admit I parked there, they have photos of my car there - but that I thought the fine was unfair, as the street had always been fine to park on, I did not see these new sign that had now sprung up - and that I thought the fine of £185 was excessive.

I said I would be willing to pay £25 as that would be closer to the council fines.

I've now got a letter saying that company reject my response - so I'm waiting to see what happens next... and I'm super scared obviously I do not want to go to court - and I really don't have £185 - but then I don't want to fine to get even higher.

Now reading on here I've seen something about POPLA?

Is it too late for me to appeal to them - because I've already had letter from Northampton County Court Business Centre?

I really don't know what to do.

A lot of the information I can find is conflicting.

If anyone can help - I would greatly appreciate it!

Jen
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Redivi
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 12:39
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@jennywrenliverpool

Start your own thread and don't hijack
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 12:43
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OP
Yes, appeal to CE
State you were not the driver and youa re aware that this area comes under Harbour byelaws, meaning that POFA2012 Schedule 4 excludes the possibility of ther ever being Keeper liability.
You require them to tcancel the ticket or contact the driver, who yo uwill not name
If the appeal is rejected, you will appela to POPLA who will uphold the appeal.
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timbuktumaster
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 12:45
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QUOTE (jennywrenliverpool @ Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 12:26) *
Hello, I'm so sorry if this is the wrong place to post this - I've never used a chat forum before.

I

Jen



This is the wrong place to post this Jen, you need to start a new thread of your own. Just copy and paste what you have written, go back to the main board and start a new topic

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 12:43) *
OP
Yes, appeal to CE
State you were not the driver and youa re aware that this area comes under Harbour byelaws, meaning that POFA2012 Schedule 4 excludes the possibility of ther ever being Keeper liability.
You require them to tcancel the ticket or contact the driver, who yo uwill not name
If the appeal is rejected, you will appela to POPLA who will uphold the appeal.



Thank you so much
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jennywrenliverpo...
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 13:50
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Thank you - have just done it
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cabbyman
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 16:13
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Post your draft here, Timbuktumaster. It's important to get the wording right.


--------------------
Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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timbuktumaster
post Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 23:25
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I have received a letter from Civil Enforcement saying my appeal has been unsuccessful, and they have given me a POPLA code. Can anyone help me with the wording for the next stage of this appeal?
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 12:01
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Yes, you do an obvious search for 2018 onwards POPLA appeals, use any bits that are useful, and post up your draft here.

You ALWAYS go after STanding - make them prove they have permission to operate.
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timbuktumaster
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 12:28
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 12:01) *
Yes, you do an obvious search for 2018 onwards POPLA appeals, use any bits that are useful, and post up your draft here.

You ALWAYS go after STanding - make them prove they have permission to operate.


What is STanding?
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Redivi
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 12:33
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Standing - do they have a contract with the landowner in accordance with the BPA Code of Practice Paras 7.2 and 7.3 ?

Hint : CEL nearly always doesn't

Contracts are usually arranged by Creative Parking, a "clean" sister company that sub-contracts to CEL

My understanding is that parking companies are no longer allowed to sign their own witness statements to POPLA on this point
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timbuktumaster
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 14:46
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I sent my original appeal to Civil Enforcement on the grounds that the registered keeper is not responsible - the driver is responsible. (as advised here, see above)

However, I have just visited the POPLA website and they say: "The Byelaws 14 (4) are specific that the owner of a vehicle “may be liable for a penalty as displayed
in that area”. Therefore, if pursuing for breach of Byelaws, the parking operator can only pursue the
owner of the vehicle. The owner may or may not be the person who was driving at the time. Another person driving the
vehicle does not affect the owner’s liability for a penalty."

So that means that I cannot appeal to Popla on the same grounds that I appealed to Civil ENforcement - does this matter? Can I still send an appeal to Popla that focuses on Standing?

I've been reading through the Popla notes on charges issued under byelaws. This paragraph:

"A penalty notice should not:

[b] Say the words “parking charge”, “parking charge notice”, or “PCN” (as this is not relevant and
will confuse the owner about the situation in which they find themselves)
[/b]"

A Penalty Notice should:
• Say it is a Penalty Notice (this can be abbreviated to PN providing the phrase Penalty Notice
is used first)"

My notice from Civil Enforcement says it is a "Penalty Charge Notice"

-is this relevant?
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