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PCN for expired ticket from Gemini Parking Solutions
neverpaying
post Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 15:40
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Hey guys,

The scanned ticket!

I got the ticket by post and there was nothing put in the windshield when the driver drove off that day. The car was parked on a private sports grounds when the ticket expired 2 hours in. The photos are about 30 minutes after expiry and only show the dashboard and another zoomed in on the ticket with timestamped images.

The PCN is from Gemini Parking Solutions which according to this forum post is one that's easy to beat. At the top it does mention to "make payment within 28 days" from the issue date. It has the BPA logo on the letter so I can assume it is a BPA firm?

Does that mean I can just use this template: "Re PCN number: I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP. ..."

Look forward to reading your replies! First time getting a ticket of any kind!

This post has been edited by neverpaying: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 17:19
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post Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 15:40
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Sheffield Dave
post Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 16:03
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Edit your post. Always refer to the driver as "the driver". It's ok to admit being the registered keeper: " I received an NtK in the post" is ok.
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neverpaying
post Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 17:20
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QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 16:03) *
I received an NtK in the post" is ok.


I never once referred to myself as the driver happy.gif

Thanks!

This post has been edited by neverpaying: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 17:20
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ostell
post Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 20:18
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They have failed to issue the warning to keeper as specified in in POFA 9 (2) (f) (and several other failures) . They can therefore not transfer liability from the driver to the keeper. And there is no requirement in law to identify the driver.

Unless it is on the reverse.

Search around and you will find a suitable template under my name.
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neverpaying
post Sun, 27 Jan 2019 - 01:23
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 20:18) *
They have failed to issue the warning to keeper as specified in in POFA 9 (2) (f) (and several other failures) . They can therefore not transfer liability from the driver to the keeper. And there is no requirement in law to identify the driver.

Unless it is on the reverse.

Search around and you will find a suitable template under my name.


Thanks for the quick reply, on the back of the letter there is a Transfer of Liability cut-out form, does that meet POFA 9 (2) (f) (ii)? If so, what other failures should I press them on? Thanks!
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Redivi
post Sun, 27 Jan 2019 - 02:29
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Thanks for the quick reply, on the back of the letter there is a Transfer of Liability cut-out form, does that meet POFA 9 (2) (f) (ii)?

No that form doesn't meet the requirements
It looks more like an attempt to identify the driver because Gemini knows that its Notices don't meet the requirements

If so, what other failures should I press them on?

My view is not to tell them

9(2)(f) is the warning that Gemini has the right after 28 days to recover payment from the keeper if the driver is unknown
The other failures are trivial in comparison and may only be a matter of required wording rather than outright failure

Don't give Gemini anything that they can dispute as a distraction

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ostell
post Sun, 27 Jan 2019 - 08:53
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Here's POFA for you to check against. paragraph 9 should all be there.

Here's a response if that paragraph is not there

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc
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neverpaying
post Mon, 28 Jan 2019 - 19:31
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Hi guys, thanks for the replies again. I just want to make sure of something again, from the section I've highlighted, it sounds to me that this does meet the POFA 9 (2) (f). Are you guys saying it doesn't?
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cabbyman
post Mon, 28 Jan 2019 - 19:40
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The wording is totally different:

9(2)(f)

warn the keeper that if, at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to keeper is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges (as specified under paragraph © or (d)) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;



In particular:

the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which..... is very well established phrasing. Parliament would have included it specifically to convey an exact meaning.


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Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Ollyfrog
post Mon, 28 Jan 2019 - 19:45
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From the Act: after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—

From the NtK: if after 29 days


Spot the difference.


Edit: Beat me to it Cabbyman!

This post has been edited by Ollyfrog: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 - 19:47
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ostell
post Mon, 28 Jan 2019 - 22:34
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For 9 (2) (f): 29 days from when ?

9 (2) (e) is not in the prescribed format either.
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neverpaying
post Tue, 29 Jan 2019 - 21:16
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Mon, 28 Jan 2019 - 19:40) *
the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which..... is very well established phrasing. Parliament would have included it specifically to convey an exact meaning.


Brilliant stuff! Love that this kind of particularity can be used against them


QUOTE (Ollyfrog @ Mon, 28 Jan 2019 - 19:45) *
From the Act: after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—

From the NtK: if after 29 days


Spot the difference.


Edit: Beat me to it Cabbyman!


QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 28 Jan 2019 - 22:34) *
For 9 (2) (f): 29 days from when ?

9 (2) (e) is not in the prescribed format either.


Thank you all for your quick responses! I've sent off the email now and hope to get the matter closed quickly!
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cabbyman
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 13:23
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You won't! They should send you a POPLA code so, start researching POPLA appeals on here from 2018 onwards. Post your draft on here for fine tuning.

Also, post what you have just sent them. Let's make sure there are no surprises that we have to counter!


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neverpaying
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 20:40
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 13:23) *
You won't! They should send you a POPLA code so, start researching POPLA appeals on here from 2018 onwards. Post your draft on here for fine tuning.

Also, post what you have just sent them. Let's make sure there are no surprises that we have to counter!


I just sent the draft from Ostell but instead of VRM I put my license plate. Is the POPLA appeal something similar, sending them a draft targeting a POFA violation?
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ostell
post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 07:40
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VRM = Vehicle Registration Mark = Licence Plate (you from elsewhere?)

Yes you appeal to POPLA with all the failures that you can think of. You must read other threads to find out what is happening.
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neverpaying
post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 20:37
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 07:40) *
VRM = Vehicle Registration Mark = Licence Plate (you from elsewhere?)

Yes you appeal to POPLA with all the failures that you can think of. You must read other threads to find out what is happening.


My mistake I'd confused it with VIN! Will do!
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neverpaying
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 22:46
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Got this one emailed to me: (put it as an image below too)

I was naive enough to think they'd give up after one email but you guys did say that wouldn't happen!

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nosferatu1001
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 11:09
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Popla appeal time 😊
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neverpaying
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 15:16
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I was seeing on another thread that POPLA appeals vs this particular company is easy. In the sense that I don't have to be very elaborate. So would just appealing based on the same 9 (2) (f) be enough do you think?

quick edit: They don't meet landowner authority either do they? So it's a case of just put as much as I can and hope they all stick?

This post has been edited by neverpaying: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 15:33
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cabbyman
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 20:23
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No, throw everything in. Post your appeal here for checking.


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Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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