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UKPC: residents revolt VS going it alone
ipsy_dipsy
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 12:37
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Hi everyone,

Short story:

My situation is similar to Mr Roger Davey who was forced to take out an injunction against UKPC. I have been having troubles with UKPC for the last two years and now I’m seriously contemplating about taking them to court. I would like to believe I’m having a pretty solid case. However, before jumping to action, I spoke to some of my neighbours and realized that many of them had had similar troubles with UKPC and only selectively bothered to challenge PCNs. By reading tons of materials on this subject on various websites, I’m at the point of realizing that all of the UK is fighting these PPC bandits on a ‘one-off’ basis, i.e. individually by coming to these forums, wasting hundreds of hours of our precious time, hoping that in the end we would sort out our individual cases. This should not be like that because sorting out one trouble at a time isn’t going to solve things at the root. This is a systemic rot and PPCs are exploiting existing grey areas of legislation by preying on gullible people.

Now, rather than going it alone I’m considering asking my neighbours (about 80 properties on the estate) if they are willing to join me. As an incentive, I’m thinking of putting something along these lines: “if you or any of your authorized visitors received PCNs from UKPC while parking in your parking bays you can get all of your money back. No commitment required. Please contact me for further details”. In this day and age it’s been proven (#MeToo first comes to mind) that the power of one can be easily multiplied x100000 if done correctly. Fair enough, I’m only talking about one small residential estate, but still it's all about setting a precedent.

I wonder if this is something that has been done before? Your advice would be greatly appreciated.



Longer version:

Basically, I’m finding myself in a situation where I have to prove to a trespasser that I have legal rights to enjoy peacefully my property!

The standard scenario for the last two years has been that UKPC would issue a PCN (by trespassing on my land), I would then nicely contact our managing agent and get them to cancel that PCN. Then, I would kindly ask the managing agent to obtain a written confirmation from UKPC that such ‘wrongdoing’ won’t happen again, and then after some time we would be back to square one with another PCN on my windscreen.

At the end of last year I got a ticket from UKPC and on this occasion they would not back off (presumably feeling more confident due to Beavis case). We recently changed our managing agent to another company that is completely incompetent when it comes to parking wardens. In the meantime, in relation to the latest PCN, my formal appeal via UKPC website failed (obviously), my POPLA appeal didn’t bring any success either (not that I held my breath). UKPC is now threatening me with passing on my details to their debt collectors.

Our development is a mix of houses and flats. My property is a freehold house with private parking included. All flats have leases with allocated private parking bays scattered around the estate. In addition, we are all shareholders of the managing company that co-owns communal areas on the estate. None of our Land Transfers and Deeds of Covenants has any restrictions on parking other than ‘using for purposes for which they are intended’. As for Primacy of contract, all Transfers predate arrangements between the managing agent and UKPC. Also I got hold of unredacted version of UKPC contract and it has got tons of serious holes in it.

I can of course pay up and forget about it, but that’s not the point - UKPC will come back again and again, as it has been proven. Managing company directors have no spine whatsoever. I’ve already drafted LBCCC to include UKPC, landowner, managing company, and both managing agents as defendants, holding them jointly and severally liable. I thought I might check on here if this is a good idea going for a ‘bulk’ court action instead? Thank you.
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post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 12:37
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The Slithy Tove
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 14:09
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QUOTE (ipsy_dipsy @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 12:37) *
we are all shareholders of the managing company that co-owns communal areas on the estate.

...

Managing company directors have no spine whatsoever.

It would appear that the former snippet I have quoted provides the route to do something about the latter.
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whjohnson
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 14:11
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Great idea, but you would need to ensure that you get all of your ducks in a row first.
You would need to confirm exactly which and how many properties on your estate are directly affected, then you would need to get lease copies for each one and scrutinize the contents very carefully to ensure that you have valid legal grounds to move forward in the way which you intend.

Good luck, and keep us posted on any progress.
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Eljayjay
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 14:30
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I am a little confused by some of what you say.

You say "My property is a freehold house with private parking included", but then you also say "I’ve already drafted LBCCC to include UKPC, landowner, managing company, and both managing agents as defendants". If your property is a freehold house, you are the landowner and you would not normally be involved with either a managing company or managing agents.

Is your parking space or garage part of the freehold property which you own or is it, say, subject to a separate lease?
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ipsy_dipsy
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 16:40
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QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 14:09) *
QUOTE (ipsy_dipsy @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 12:37) *
we are all shareholders of the managing company that co-owns communal areas on the estate.

...

Managing company directors have no spine whatsoever.

It would appear that the former snippet I have quoted provides the route to do something about the latter.

I had a word with one of the managing directors. Basically, they are acting in their directors roles as unpaid volunteers. Hence there is very little appetite on their end to get heavily involved. As a matter of fact, the director's advice was to pay up, even though I specifically stressed that UKPC is our servants and they must rather behave on the estate. All the directors need to do is to instruct UKPC to cancel charges. It looks like UKPC is clearly abusing the initial intent of us putting parking controls on the estate. In addition to that, the directors can't care less about it. Unless it's more sinister, of course, because the contract with UKPC suggests that the managing company gets 10% kickback from PCNs issued on the estate.
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ipsy_dipsy
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 16:52
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QUOTE (whjohnson @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 14:11) *
Great idea, but you would need to ensure that you get all of your ducks in a row first.
You would need to confirm exactly which and how many properties on your estate are directly affected, then you would need to get lease copies for each one and scrutinize the contents very carefully to ensure that you have valid legal grounds to move forward in the way which you intend.

Good luck, and keep us posted on any progress.

Thanks. I know precisely how many properties on the estate. Also I'm 95% certain that all leases are the same because all properties have similar parking bays. There will be only two distinct types of land transfers - one for freehold houses and one for leased flats. I've gone through my freehold Land Transfer in great details. I also got a copy of the lease for one of the flats. There is absolutely nothing that speaks about parking arrangements with UKPC / or the ability of the managing company to restrict / remove parking spaces unilaterally. The outdated contract with UKPC (that is dated significantly later after the land transfers) is the only document that governs their presence here.

This post has been edited by ipsy_dipsy: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 17:15
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cdon1975
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 17:03
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I have exactly the same issue ... nowhere in the lease does it mention private parking companies having the right to issue notices - it also states the verges , paths and roads are maintained by the public ..

I’ll follow your post as I am very tempted to go down the same route
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 17:04
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Have you read the threads by:

Henry Hippo, here, who won £500 in a counterclaim on Friday on court v UKPC, re a residential scam ticketing operation:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=114450

and Daniel san and hairray on MSE? Both are linked here and were about a different firm, UKCPM, but they all show a BRILLIANT REVOLT by residents:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=119306

HTH
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ipsy_dipsy
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 17:16
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 14:30) *
I am a little confused by some of what you say.

You say "My property is a freehold house with private parking included", but then you also say "I’ve already drafted LBCCC to include UKPC, landowner, managing company, and both managing agents as defendants". If your property is a freehold house, you are the landowner and you would not normally be involved with either a managing company or managing agents.

Is your parking space or garage part of the freehold property which you own or is it, say, subject to a separate lease?

There are no garages on the estate - all properties are similar in style and have exactly the same 'one-car' parking lots. In terms of the legal paperwork, there are no separate leases for parking spaces. One Land Transfer would cover either a freehold property or a leased flat, which comes with its parking by default. In other words, absolutely all properties would have an allocated and numbered parking lot. It's just, as oppose to houses, for flats those parking spaces would not be immediately in front of their block entrances and rather scattered around the estate.

Indeed I'm the freehold landowner of the individual property as well as the parking space located in front (this is also explicitly included in the property Title), however the estate itself has also its own communal areas (like common pathways, footpaths, courts in front of blocks of flats, communal gardens and visitors parking bays). We also share rubbish bins and other amenities. That's the only reason why there is the managing company and therefore the managing agents involved.

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 17:04) *
Have you read the threads by:

Henry Hippo, here, who won £500 in a counterclaim on Friday on court v UKPC, re a residential scam ticketing operation:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=114450

and Daniel san and hairray on MSE? Both are linked here and were about a different firm, UKCPM, but they all show a BRILLIANT REVOLT by residents:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=119306

HTH

This is brilliant! Thank you
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The Slithy Tove
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 17:37
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I assume you have read this:
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum...le-for-trespass-
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ipsy_dipsy
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 18:48
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QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 17:37) *


Yeap, thanks. I find myself in exactly the same situation (i.e. trespassing on private freehold land). Hence my high level of confidence that my case is solid. It's just I'm double minded on whether to:
(a) proceed as is and wait till UKPC finally gets to the court stage. Then revealing my trump card about freehold, non-inclusion of my property as per UKPC contract + possible counterclaim + multiple DVLA DPAs + potential DPAs for sharing my details with SCS and Debt Collectors.
(b) strike now by becoming court Claimant myself, before UKPC gets to the court proceedings on their current PCN. I'm having multiple past trespassings with UKPC confirming each time in writing via email to the managing agent that they 'UKPC must not under any circumstances patrol freehold parking spaces'. I'm not entirely sure if these emails could be classed as undertakings.
© option (b) on steroids - going for a bulk action and include other residents on the estate. My rough estimate is low hundreds of PCNs, although I can't say how many fellow-neighbours would be interested in joining. I personally would not mind if somebody offered this to me and took all the hard work, so in the end I got my, say, £200 back.

For now, though, my most preferable option is (b) but I figured that since I'm already doing it for myself I might as well help others on my estate. Given that all Land Transfer documents are pretty much from cookie cutters of two types (houses + flats), the incremental amount of legwork with each extra case is very minimal. However, looking from the impact point of view, UKPC would definitely feel the pain by reverting back, say, 100 PCNs x £100 each + annual inflation of 2.5% on each PCN. I'm really after karma on UKPC, if you know what I mean wink.gif
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 18:51
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I really like your tenacity!
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Eljayjay
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 19:08
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Managing agents and the directors of residents' management companies often assume powers that they do not have.

Check the governing documentation relating to your estate. [My kids are the owners of a leasehold flat. Their lease contains some rules about parking, but there is absolutely nothing in their lease (or any of the other flats' leases) which makes the management company or its managing agents responsible for parking matters.]

The directors of limited companies have an obligation to act in the interests of their companies and the companies' shareholders. They must act with due diligence. In the case of a residents' management company, that includes making sure that they act in accordance with their powers as expressed in the leases (or other governing documentation) and the company's articles of association.

So, if your management company and/or its managing agents have entered into a contract with a parking company but there is nothing in the documentation governing where you live which empowers them to do that, you could do better to threaten them with court action (particularly if you threaten action against a director in his/her personal capacity) than a more hard-headed parking company.

Probably, the place to start would be to write to the directors stating your belief that they have not acted with due diligence in carrying out their duties as directors and demanding that, unless they can point to the source of their power to manage parking where you park, they must instruct their agents and their agents' agents to cease and desist their trespass of your parking space.
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ipsy_dipsy
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 19:17
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 18:51) *
I really like your tenacity!

Many thanks. I'm a very humble individual and really minding my own business (indeed, finally 'quietly enjoying' my own property, particularly taking into account how long it took me to buy it). However, I would drop every single thing and start putting up all my defences when the likes of UKPCs act so lawlessly in my face! It's such a shame that the Government consciously allows these predators exist. I reckon a petition is the only answer here because the entire system is rotten to the core. But let's leave it for another day, one step at the time...

Really appreciate other views and opinions please.
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 19:21
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QUOTE
a shame that the Government consciously allows these predators exist. I reckon a petition is the only answer

Well Parliament is trying, no petition needed:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5787731

Have you watched the debate?
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ipsy_dipsy
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 19:57
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 19:08) *
Managing agents and the directors of residents' management companies often assume powers that they do not have.

Check the governing documentation relating to your estate. [My kids are the owners of a leasehold flat. Their lease contains some rules about parking, but there is absolutely nothing in their lease (or any of the other flats' leases) which makes the management company or its managing agents responsible for parking matters.]

The directors of limited companies have an obligation to act in the interests of their companies and the companies' shareholders. They must act with due diligence. In the case of a residents' management company, that includes making sure that they act in accordance with their powers as expressed in the leases (or other governing documentation) and the company's articles of association.

So, if your management company and/or its managing agents have entered into a contract with a parking company but there is nothing in the documentation governing where you live which empowers them to do that, you could do better to threaten them with court action (particularly if you threaten action against a director in his/her personal capacity) than a more hard-headed parking company.

Probably, the place to start would be to write to the directors stating your belief that they have not acted with due diligence in carrying out their duties as directors and demanding that, unless they can point to the source of their power to manage parking where you park, they must instruct their agents and their agents' agents to cease and desist their trespass of your parking space.

Thank you ever so much! Really appreciate your view.

Yes, the management company article of incorporation was looked at first thing. The company actually possesses delegation rights and has powers to form contracts in their own name and retain agents as they see fit. I presume parking patrol services would fall under this category. There has been absolutely no communication on this matter to myself apart from some notes in AGMs (which, admittedly, I didn't attend). Likewise, there are no materials / guidance / provisions provided by the management company on this - only UKPC signage on the estate.

Indeed, I have been considering writing LBCCC to the directors only (obviously pissing them off since they all live on the estate). This will most likely result in my PCN cancellation and another 'won't do it again' from UKPC, but slightly more elevated because the directors will be involved this time round. But then again, I'm asking myself "how would I solve it at the root?". Because on this forum I might be now reading posts from my very fellow neighbours who would be also trawling millions of Internet pages during the night trying to prove their innocense (bloody madness!). I still think I could do better than that.

But once again, many thanks indeed for your suggestion (particularly mentioning directors personal capacity for LTDs).
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CoffeeAddict
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 20:04
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QUOTE (ipsy_dipsy @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 19:57) *
QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 19:08) *
Managing agents and the directors of residents' management companies often assume powers that they do not have.

Check the governing documentation relating to your estate. [My kids are the owners of a leasehold flat. Their lease contains some rules about parking, but there is absolutely nothing in their lease (or any of the other flats' leases) which makes the management company or its managing agents responsible for parking matters.]

The directors of limited companies have an obligation to act in the interests of their companies and the companies' shareholders. They must act with due diligence. In the case of a residents' management company, that includes making sure that they act in accordance with their powers as expressed in the leases (or other governing documentation) and the company's articles of association.

So, if your management company and/or its managing agents have entered into a contract with a parking company but there is nothing in the documentation governing where you live which empowers them to do that, you could do better to threaten them with court action (particularly if you threaten action against a director in his/her personal capacity) than a more hard-headed parking company.

Probably, the place to start would be to write to the directors stating your belief that they have not acted with due diligence in carrying out their duties as directors and demanding that, unless they can point to the source of their power to manage parking where you park, they must instruct their agents and their agents' agents to cease and desist their trespass of your parking space.



As a volunteer director of a limited company (Campaign For Real Ale Limited) I can say that it makes little difference whether the directors are paid or not.

You should, as advised, check the company's Articles Of Association. This should tell you how you can call a general meeting, and at it bring a resolution that you have no confidence in the directors. If this passes (all the shareholders should have a vote) you can then elect new directors that have more backbone and actually represent you.
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ipsy_dipsy
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 20:07
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 19:21) *
QUOTE
a shame that the Government consciously allows these predators exist. I reckon a petition is the only answer

Well Parliament is trying, no petition needed:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5787731

Have you watched the debate?

I have not. thank you for posting the link. It's good to know that something is being done in this space, although I suspect such a complex and so grey area won't be solved immediately.

Being involved so heavily in this these days, I have tons of ideas how to take things in our (public) hands and show PPCs where they should sit. Although I'm leaving it till another day / another thread.
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ipsy_dipsy
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 20:41
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QUOTE (CoffeeAddict @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 20:04) *
QUOTE (ipsy_dipsy @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 19:57) *
QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 19:08) *
Managing agents and the directors of residents' management companies often assume powers that they do not have.

Check the governing documentation relating to your estate. [My kids are the owners of a leasehold flat. Their lease contains some rules about parking, but there is absolutely nothing in their lease (or any of the other flats' leases) which makes the management company or its managing agents responsible for parking matters.]

The directors of limited companies have an obligation to act in the interests of their companies and the companies' shareholders. They must act with due diligence. In the case of a residents' management company, that includes making sure that they act in accordance with their powers as expressed in the leases (or other governing documentation) and the company's articles of association.

So, if your management company and/or its managing agents have entered into a contract with a parking company but there is nothing in the documentation governing where you live which empowers them to do that, you could do better to threaten them with court action (particularly if you threaten action against a director in his/her personal capacity) than a more hard-headed parking company.

Probably, the place to start would be to write to the directors stating your belief that they have not acted with due diligence in carrying out their duties as directors and demanding that, unless they can point to the source of their power to manage parking where you park, they must instruct their agents and their agents' agents to cease and desist their trespass of your parking space.



As a volunteer director of a limited company (Campaign For Real Ale Limited) I can say that it makes little difference whether the directors are paid or not.

You should, as advised, check the company's Articles Of Association. This should tell you how you can call a general meeting, and at it bring a resolution that you have no confidence in the directors. If this passes (all the shareholders should have a vote) you can then elect new directors that have more backbone and actually represent you.

True, I have been thinking of making waves there. Then again, the management company does pretty decent job in terms of upkeeping the territory, etc. Realistically speaking, I would also give some benefits of the doubt to the managing agent (we only switched to them some months ago). Plus, the outlined solution would be more of a medium- to long-term (not an immediate PCN resolution). In addition to that, weighing up my chances of complete overhaul of the management company directorship, there are many BTL properties on the estate (we are in London) and judging by how many owners attend AGMs/vote proxy, I would not bet on it.

Perhaps most important factor, like I said, if not for this odd UKPC incident, I've been actually quite happy with the way the management company runs the estate. I'm not even sure if this was due to me incidentally 'crossing wires' with this individual director I spoke to? Who knows, he might have been holding grudges on me due to me having a skip in front of my property for 4 months, or because I extended my house and he didn't. I'm telling you, people are weird things. I honestly would have thought that the director (who is also exposed to the same UKPC 'overzealous patrolling') would have jumped on my case and solved it in no time. He was definitely far from being helpful when he concluded my amicable chat with him with "you must pay up or good luck with the court".
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Eljayjay
post Sun, 18 Mar 2018 - 20:51
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Ipsy_dipsy

Theoretically, the articles of association may well allow a company to hire a company to run "parking patrol services" and to do all sorts of other things, but that is not the be all and end all of the matter.

Your favourite supermarket's articles of association clearly allow it to sell groceries, but they cannot sell groceries from your parking space.

So, if there is nothing about parking in the documentation governing the management company's relationship with you, the management company would be acting beyond its powers to impose parking patrol services on you.

Both the articles of association and the other documentation have to be enabling in this respect.

The management company and/or the managing agents may well claim that they are able to introduce regulations for the benefit of residents, but a ticketing and charging parking regime benefits no-one apart from the parking contractor (and anyone to whom they pay backhanders). This sort of predatory regime almost certainly does not prevent others parking in residents' allocated spaces and, if/when they do, the residents get nothing to compensate them for the inconvenience of having to find and pay for somewhere else to park.

CoffeeAddict's words are wise. Very often, when volunteer directors are threatened with court action, their first reaction is to resign (wrongly thinking this will get them off the hook). If they all go, that really does open the way for the shareholders to appoint a new board at a general meeting.
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