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TRO and Bus Lanes legalities
plonka
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:00
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I would appreciate advice or knowledge of legalities.

I have a 10 seater vehicle, which can go into any bus lane (so long as it doesn't say local). I have been having a fight with my local council about this and they have eventually accepted that the legislation http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/made clearly defines a bus as follows:-
“a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver.”

Also
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/31...ulation/23/made
which clearly states:-
“Bus lane” in the signs referred to in paragraph
(1) means a traffic lane reserved for—
(a)motor vehicles constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers (exclusive of the driver);

In other words, the sign of a "BUS" on a bus lane automatically allows (so long as it doesn't say "local") any vehicle above 8+ passenger seats, or 9 passenger+1 driver, which is a minimum of 10 seats.


My question is as follows. The current TRO of the BUS LANE is one that is based on one created in 1997, prior to the legislation clarifying about the signage which can be found HERE , therefore in the TRO where it states who can use the Bus Lane, "a school bus. a stage carriage. a contract carriage or a works bus, any other vehicle constructed or adapted to carry 12 or more passengers", which would mean that a sign of a normal BUS which allows 8 or more passengers would mean that the signage is inadequate, as it is not in-line with their own TRO.

Would that invalidate the Bus Lane altogether?

This post has been edited by plonka: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 13:36
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plonka
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 15:44
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Fair points there. If it would have said Bus, then it would have referred to whatever the legislation refers to, so would be a variable item within the TRO which would change when the legislation changes.

The system of TRO's were different then, and they have updated the times of the TRO since, however surely they should bring them up to date somewhat. The original TRO was simply a "TRO", when councils can do as they wish, then it would have to change.

I cant find any other bus lane besides for this one prior to 2002 (outside of London)!

I will try writing to the council as an official complaints, but I imagine as its a self regulatory business, they can just ignore this
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southpaw82
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 17:19
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QUOTE (plonka @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 16:44) *
I imagine as its a self regulatory business, they can just ignore this

It’s not a business. Local Government Ombudsman.


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plonka
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 23:33
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 18:19) *
QUOTE (plonka @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 16:44) *
I imagine as its a self regulatory business, they can just ignore this

It’s not a business. Local Government Ombudsman.

Thanks for that, seems to be the last option

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 21:59) *
I ask again what was the reason for the adjudicator allowing your appeal. This will make a difference to any action you take

It didn't get to adjudication, however the council accepted my appeal eventually after convincing them that they hadn't read up the legislation what the signposts mean

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 22:14) *
No no no no no !
And NO
Councils cannot ignore official complaints.
There is a set procedure that progresses from okay for some oik in relevant department can answer to must be higher management to Local Gov Ombudsman.
If it goes through stages (or ignored) with their resolution offered to "stop driving in bus lanes" LGO will uphold your complaint and if nothing else, that leaves the council really behind the 8 ball should they issue another PCN.

First bus lane in UK was Reading (1968) according to Wikipedia... take that for what it is worth.
Like CPZs, they didn't exist when I started driving but now blight the landscape.

Re first bus lane, will have to look into that, but an interesting fact.

I agree with your point in regards to advising me to avoid bus lanes or get the PCN's, but that is what the have replied! unbelievable really! I tried to explain to them the onus is on them to make sure they dont harass, however they didn't seem to buy that! If it was a company, they would get sued for all sorts of things, but they seem to think they are above the law. I also pointed out to them about the highway code 160!

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 22:35) *
Is there a specific authority for a council to create a “bus lane TRO” or is it the same as a “regular TRO” (using your terminology there)?

Yes and No. They are both a TRO, but the there is a specific Bus Lane contravention, so that would need to be mentioned as their power to create the TRO, and the other thing would need to be mentioned is that the TRO allows for a "bus" only, and that term would refer back to the legislation.

A council can ban anything, (including pedestrians I believe) in a TRO, so they could be specific who they are banning, however that would be down do that particular TRO, but they probably would find it impossible to actually action, as they would need to somehow get some signage to go along with their TRO which don't exist.
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southpaw82
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 12:18
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QUOTE (plonka @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 00:33) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 22:35) *
Is there a specific authority for a council to create a “bus lane TRO” or is it the same as a “regular TRO” (using your terminology there)?

Yes and No. They are both a TRO, but the there is a specific Bus Lane contravention, so that would need to be mentioned as their power to create the TRO, and the other thing would need to be mentioned is that the TRO allows for a "bus" only, and that term would refer back to the legislation.

A council can ban anything, (including pedestrians I believe) in a TRO, so they could be specific who they are banning, however that would be down do that particular TRO, but they probably would find it impossible to actually action, as they would need to somehow get some signage to go along with their TRO which don't exist.

So, there isn’t such a thing as a “bus lane TRO” then, other than as a descriptor of a particular TRO and its effect. I seem to recall they are all made under the same enabling legislation, primarily the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.


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Posts in this topic
- plonka   TRO and Bus Lanes legalities   Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:00
- - Wretched Rectum   From what I gather, as Bury is outside London the ...   Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:07
|- - PASTMYBEST   QUOTE (Wretched Rectum @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 ...   Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:16
- - DancingDad   TSRGD 2016 is the ruling interpretation re bus lan...   Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:12
- - plonka   Thanks for the responses. QUOTE (Wretched Rectum ...   Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:39
|- - The Rookie   QUOTE (plonka @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 19...   Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 21:32
- - PASTMYBEST   Post up a GSV of the bus lane in question   Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 19:31
- - plonka   https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5225076,-...3312...   Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 20:37
- - DancingDad   So a standard 654 style bus lane sign. (then) Now ...   Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 21:28
|- - PASTMYBEST   QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 2...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 09:46
|- - plonka   QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 1...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 12:57
|- - The Rookie   QUOTE (plonka @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 13...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 13:07
|- - plonka   QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 1...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 13:13
|- - DancingDad   QUOTE (plonka @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 14...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 14:15
||- - plonka   QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 1...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 14:53
||- - DancingDad   QUOTE (plonka @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 15...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 15:16
|- - southpaw82   QUOTE (plonka @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 14...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 21:35
- - PASTMYBEST   Post up the PCN   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 13:11
- - plonka   See attachment. I have appealed it and won, howe...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 13:40
- - The Rookie   I think you are wrong to be honest. This order by ...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 13:54
|- - plonka   QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 1...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 13:59
- - The Rookie   I don't think it is, the fact the Bury has a b...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 14:03
|- - plonka   QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 1...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 14:07
- - PASTMYBEST   there is a specific PCN for bus lanes. The one you...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 14:33
- - plonka   Fair points there. If it would have said Bus, then...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 15:44
|- - southpaw82   QUOTE (plonka @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 16...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 17:19
||- - plonka   QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 1...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 23:33
||- - peterguk   QUOTE (plonka @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 00...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 23:49
|||- - plonka   QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 00...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 23:54
||- - DancingDad   QUOTE (plonka @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 00...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 09:08
|||- - plonka   QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 1...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 09:47
||- - southpaw82   QUOTE (plonka @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 00...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 12:18
||- - DancingDad   QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 1...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 12:25
|- - DancingDad   QUOTE (plonka @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 16...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 21:14
- - notmeatloaf   Local govt ombudsman tend to be interested in reso...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 20:43
- - PASTMYBEST   QUOTE (plonka @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17...   Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 20:59
- - DancingDad   It is a lane created for school buses, works buses...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 11:37
|- - plonka   QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 1...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 13:10
|- - DancingDad   QUOTE (plonka @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 14...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 13:23
|- - plonka   QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 1...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 14:06
|- - DancingDad   QUOTE (plonka @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 15...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 15:19
- - plonka   I wasn't saying that! What I was trying t...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 15:51
|- - southpaw82   QUOTE (plonka @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 16...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 16:27
|- - plonka   QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 1...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 16:32
|- - DancingDad   QUOTE (plonka @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 17...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 17:01
- - PASTMYBEST   This amendment might make things clearer https://...   Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 16:04


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