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Mobile Vans - LTi 20-20 Speedscope, The most commonly used mobile speed camera
Mika
post Wed, 25 Feb 2004 - 09:14
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This link will take you to a page which explains the information that appears on the LTi 20-20 Lastec traffic videos.

UPDATE 21st January 2009

Motorist beats 98mph charge

UPDATE 7th February 2007

MCN has the following.

QUOTE
Frank Garratt admitted the speed meter can make a host of errors including ‘slip’ error.


UPDATE 12th September

BBC Inside Out broadcast a follow-up program about the accuracy of the LTi 20-20 and a RealPlayer video of the relevant part of the programme is available for download here (38Mb).

There is a lower resolution WMV file available here. (3.68Mb)

There is also an article about this program on the BBC Inside Out Website.

Inside Out – BBC South West: Monday February 28, 2005:

NOTE A 16Mb RealPlayer clip from the programme, can be downloaded from this link.

“Mobile speed cameras are increasingly being used by the police to enforce speed limits, but how accurate are they?

We look at these cameras and see if their claims of accuracy are themselves accurate.

You may also find this recent Wiltshire case of interest - the Crown dropped the charge, rather than disclosing the traffic video.

Watch the video in this case carefully and decide for yourself. Did the motorcycle decelerate from 107 mph to 87 mph, without braking?

You may also find this US case of interest – “Laser Loses a Legal Test

We can also provide the recording as a SVCD, which will play in most DVD players.

The result of the case was as follows:

Guilty of travelling at 107 mph

Disqualified from driving for 28 days

£500 fine and £1000 costs - the prosecution asked for £2000 costs.

The defendant couldn't afford to go to appeal and in any case, at the time, Mr Garrett was the only recognised "expert" on the LTi 20/20 in this country. That may have changed now. icon_wink.gif


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post Wed, 25 Feb 2004 - 09:14
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DW190
post Tue, 16 Nov 2004 - 01:22
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I don't know if this has been placed elsewere but it is another nail in the coffin for them


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bbmaj
post Tue, 16 Nov 2004 - 10:12
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Do we know what type of device was in use? The usual 2020 mistakes?
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g_attrill
post Tue, 16 Nov 2004 - 12:47
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QUOTE (bbmaj)
Do we know what type of device was in use?  The usual 2020 mistakes?

http://www.safespeedforlife.com/mobile_how.asp

Seems they use Mobile Gatso's and 20/20's.

Considering they talked about "triggering the device" I presume a mobile gatso was in use.

It's also interesting to read their comments about the devices on that page:

"Lastec 20/20....The equipment is so accurate it can take a reading from just the wing mirror of a targeted moving vehicle.... speeding motorists will not be able to claim that the beam was affected by another vehicle just in front, just behind or just at the side of them..."

"Mobile Gatsos... is also capable of taking single frontal images of oncoming vehicles"

icon_redface.gif icon_redface.gif icon_redface.gif for both paragraphs

If they operate in forward-facing mode it might not be legal anyway:
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/pr140.html

Gareth
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flyin flea
post Thu, 18 Nov 2004 - 21:35
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Slightly off topic but..... Lti20-20 .... bad for YOUR eye sight???....
Go here, then scroll down to page 67, item 14.5 a....
"Do not stare directly in to the beam"
...... now when some 'person' is pointing the thing at you and triggering bursts of laser radiation... you (the accused) have no choice in this matter.... you are staring directly in to the beam!
Is there not some grounds here for our health? :?


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flopper
post Sun, 21 Nov 2004 - 02:26
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Quote:Scammers
The equipment is so accurate it can take a reading from just the wing mirror of a targeted moving vehicle, meaning that innocent motorists need not fear triggering the beam by mistake. By the same token, speeding motorists will not be able to claim that the beam was affected by another vehicle just in front, just behind or just at the side of them.

The cameras operate effectively in poor light conditions, including at night, in fog, and also in rain and snow without the beam being refracted by water drops. This enables the roadside patrols to be available to assist motorists more often and for longer during winter months when road conditions are generally more hazardous, road surfaces are often slippery and driving at a safe and slower speed becomes even more important.

End quote

I'd like to see the supporting data to prove this, or are we just going on the word of a manufacturer whose product has already been proven to be innacurate?


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Tamara-D
post Sun, 21 Nov 2004 - 10:01
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QUOTE (flopper)
Quote:Scammers

The cameras operate effectively in poor light conditions, including at night, in fog, and also in rain and snow without the beam being refracted by water drops.

End quote

So they are also claiming to defy the laws of Physics now? icon_eek.gif biggrin.gif


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MrsMiggins
post Sun, 21 Nov 2004 - 12:03
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QUOTE (Tamara-D)
So they are also claiming to defy the laws of Physics now? icon_eek.gif biggrin.gif

[scotty-mode] Ye cannae change the laws of physics![/scotty-mode] laugh.gif


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Captain A
post Sun, 21 Nov 2004 - 21:25
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QUOTE
The cameras operate effectively in poor light conditions, including at night, in fog, and also in rain and snow without the beam being refracted by water drops. This enables the roadside patrols to be available to assist motorists more often and for longer during winter months


I am so relieved to know that 'roadside patrols' are there to 'assist' motorists like me during those cold dark winter months.
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anton
post Thu, 25 Nov 2004 - 18:47
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QUOTE
Anyhow, didn't Anton try to get hold of a laser recently?


Anton did try to get hold of a LTI20-20
some one agreed to it
then he decided £50 an hour
I agreed to drive 200 miles and pay £50an hour and he has stopped talking to me

So I am still looking for a bit of kit to test.
I notice that they dont display the speed untill the car reads above the target speed. this hides low speed errors like moving stationary objects

I also noticed that most people get caught over 300m away when the number plate cant be read. pull over wait for a lorry and then tailgate him passed the camera and dont let him see your reg plate laugh.gif
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Insider
post Fri, 26 Nov 2004 - 09:08
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Was it a guy up in our northern cousins patch anton?


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anton
post Fri, 26 Nov 2004 - 13:14
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No it was a gps/jammer firm in Huntington.
I dont know the full story except e-mails and mobile calls don't work to him any more...

So I am still looking to get my mits on the kit... anyone...
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flyin flea
post Thu, 2 Dec 2004 - 13:41
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icon_idea.gif Ive been ponderin.......

We know these things are based on the Lti20 measuring device and fire more than one laser beam from the front.
Is the speedscope device called a Lti20-20 becuase it utilises TWO Lti20 devices?? (thinkin along the lines that it was maybe designed mid-90s.... when electronics wernt so fast) ....because (maybe) a singular Lti20 could not make succesive measurements quick enough.

In which case then you have two distance measuring devices firing two lasers which could bouce off of two completely different objects! And therefore, the sights for the device do not identify exactly what the laser(s) are targeting.



Moving on......
You must have all seen football on telly.... now think of the moment when the home team scores and the crowd errupts.... one effect of this (sometimes) is for the TV camera gantry to bounce around..... resulting in very shakey close ups of the goal scorer.

So?
The cameras used to get the shakey picture only have an 80:1 lens at most, are only taking pictures of something maybe 60 metres away, have a professional camera operative behind them, and are firmed bolted to the camera gantry.

And......
Lti20-20s are NOT operated by professionals, frequently target vehicles well over 200m away, and are (usually) inside a van (even sat inside a van next to a road). Now, its no doubt the camera inside the lti20-20 is a fairly top end domestic single CCD camera..... in which case.... it (just like so many others) features image stabalising hardware... to remove shakey pictures. BUT.... the lti20 measuring devices... will not. Thus... the far end of the laser will be bouncing in what I can only imagine to be a very erratic manner.


I know I may have re-itterated what we already know.... Im just adding the opion of a broadcast engineer!


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andypandy
post Thu, 2 Dec 2004 - 14:15
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Hi flyin flea

I am not that sure they use image stabilising on the video camera. Have you seen spongles dvd. The video image bounces and rocks with the movement of the van. If they do have image stab then its a low quality version. And as for the laser who knows what degree of error is induced through vibration and movement.


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g_attrill
post Thu, 2 Dec 2004 - 15:59
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I think it depends on the system - I have seen some systems with a separate commercial grade CCTV camera mounted bare on the top (with a large manual lens)

This pic is from Teletraffic's site:



The lens mounted is a standard Canon 70-200 35mm SLR lens, which they must have adapted to fit a camera. It is available with image stabilisation (IS) which is mechanical based and in the lens itself.

edit: The Canon IS reduces camera SHAKE (ie. blur) - it won't stop a large motion cause by a juggernaut draught or loose bolts icon_redface.gif

I think the equipment in Spongle's video is an older system - it's probably an older system - even though it has been copied onto VHS the colours are terrible.

Gareth


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Clear Skies
post Thu, 2 Dec 2004 - 16:35
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QUOTE (flyin flea)
icon_idea.gif Ive been ponderin.......

. Thus... the far end of the laser will be bouncing in what I can only imagine to be a very erratic manner.


!


how erratic, how many miles an hour and as an engineer , can u prove it ?

rgds
bill


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flyin flea
post Thu, 2 Dec 2004 - 17:42
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speed of light in vacuum= 300,000,000m/s (as defined by Standards Institute)
Loss of velocity due to air is negligable.

3,000,000,000 x 2.25 (conversion to mph) = 675,000,000 mph tongue.gif

G_attrill..... domestic image stabilisers are also part of the lens system....
AFAIK..... its a perfectly clear gel between two pieces of flat glass. Servos, guided by movement sensors, then move one of the pieces of glass in varying directions.... thus, making the gel in to a tiny lens, which then alters the path of the light passin through it, resultin in a steady(er) picture.
As you say, it can reduce shake, but not motion.... such as that caused by a passing truck.... or a dough nut eating officer moving around inside a Sherpa van without bracing jacks at each corner.
Even BT use hydraulic stabalising jacks on their satellite links trucks! ...same analagy.... were the BT engineer to jump out the van for (lets say) a call of nature.... the uplink beam then shoots right past the satellite in to outer space! .....thus taking the programme off air!


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flyin flea
post Thu, 2 Dec 2004 - 22:40
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Ive just sought the opinion of an expert marksman.... one of Her Majesties very own...... with the intent of finding out what its like to aim and shoot at something 500metres away..... just as our traffic cops are doing.....

QUOTE (Her Majesties armed forces)
"To shoot something 500 metres away is not easy. To get a perfect shot you need to lay down, steady your riffle on something, and make sure your sights are zeroed in correctly. To shoot a number plate 500 metres away, would be ****in difficult! And if its moving too....... If these things dont even have a propper cross wire, how on earth do you know where you're aiming?! And then you've no idea if the sights are any good as you cant see the where lasers reflecting because its infra-red!"


So, to shoot something 500metres away, you need perfect sights, and to be perfectly still. Our man in a van is wobbling around on standard van suspension with no definition of what the laser is locking on to.

* 'zeroed in' : is to calibrate and set up the riffles sights so that it actually shoots exactly what you are targetting with the crosse wires.


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flopper
post Mon, 6 Dec 2004 - 19:48
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[quote=Her Majesties armed forces]
"To shoot something 500 metres away is not easy. To get a perfect shot you need to lay down, steady your riffle on something, and make sure your sights are zeroed in correctly. To shoot a number plate 500 metres away, would be ****in difficult! And if its moving too....... If these things dont even have a propper cross wire, how on earth do you know where you're aiming?! And then you've no idea if the sights are any good as you cant see the where lasers reflecting because its infra-red!"[/quote]

So, to shoot something 500metres away, you need perfect sights, and to be perfectly still. Our man in a van is wobbling around on standard van suspension with no definition of what the laser is locking on to.
[/quote]

And that is just one rifle, imagine two bolted together? (i.e multiple beams on LTI20 /20) I remember from my shooting days that even the smallest breath meant the difference between bull's eye and a miss!! Do the scammers get recruited from the SAS? Are they super marksmen? I would happily stand the other side of no man's land and let them take pot shots at me. icon_eek.gif

Is there a way of making the IR beams visible? (A level physics seems so long ago) Then recording the spread over increments of, say 20-50 metres, you can build up a pattern of what is likely to interfere at certain distances, be it other vehicles, street furniture or even the road itself.

Would the beam be affected by puddles of standing water?

I'm hoping this topic is covered in the Christmas lectures. icon_wink.gif


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fossil
post Mon, 27 Dec 2004 - 22:21
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I am interested in this story and applaud the effort put in by everyone so far.

I'm trying to see if any of it can be applied to a case in Scotland.

My son has to appear in court to answer a charge of driving at 67 in a 40.

We are not sure what equipment he was captured on... how does one tell ?

From knowledge of the place he was captured I suspect there was a Traffic Safety Van with doors opened at back sitting in a layby at side of dual carriagway in the Edinburgh area.

Can someone tell me if that is likely to be one of these LT 20 20 machines.
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firefly
post Mon, 27 Dec 2004 - 22:37
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Hi fossil,

More details required. Has your son got a court date through?


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