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Dieselgate (again)
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post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 09:06
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Driving to work I am now besieged by radio adverts to sign up with Slater & Gordon and their action against VW.

They are claiming to be getting 50% of the value of the vehicles (even if you only leased the thing!) as compensation for something.

What for?

Compensation for paying less VED than they should have?
Compensation for unwittingly damaging the environment more than they expected to whilst driving- how will that help? (ooh I took 20 years off someone's life, rather than only 15, £10,000 will help me get over it rolleyes.gif )

What actual financial loss have they suffered? (especially the leasers)


I'm not against fining VW and giving the money to the NHS or something, but if I were presiding over this I'd just throw it out as nonsense.

This post has been edited by facade: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 09:07
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post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 09:06
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peterguk
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 09:09
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We hired a Golf for a week in Naples a couple of years ago.
Maybe i should call them and find out if i'm entitled to any compo.


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samthecat
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 09:20
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I could almost see the point if due to the emmisons malarky a private owner finds their car has a chunk of resale value knocked off however this doesn't seem to have happened.

As for lease customers I have no idea! Whole point of a lease is for X years of fixed costs which you agree at the start. Redonkulous.


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The Rookie
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 09:23
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I would suggest owners lost money on re-sale, especially those who had to sell during the 'hiatus' period rather than once the cars were reworked and the future status assured.
I agree in that I'm not sure what losses leasers suffered (though there would be an equivalent loss to the above for the lease Co's)
VED in most cases has been unaffected so that note is spurious.

My Dad had an A4 TDi, the dealer admitted he probably lost an extra £1000-1500 at trade in compared to the equivalent pre-'Dieselgate' values for his car.


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facade
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 09:51
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I wasn't sure about the VED, as the problem was NOx, and as the performance is apparently crippled by the "fix" I'm not sure if the CO2 would go up down or stay the same.


Diesel cars have lost a lot of money lately, I'd say that is more to do with "The Government" and the media hype over supposed plans to get rid of diesels, as well as the current hype over costly DPF issues, than whether the emission figures are fiddled on a particular car tbh

Second hand car values are always going to fluctuate with the market- a few years ago a white car was worth a lot more than a gunmetal one, now thankfully, gunmetal grey is back in fashion biggrin.gif - if you'd paid a premium for a second hand white one 3 years ago you'd have lost the extra money.


Still can't see why you need compensation, the car did what you expected (apart from produce more NOx under artificial test conditions that rarely happen on the road).

Now if you had the "fix" and the thing went from leaping tiger to plodding carthorse, and every day you were humiliated at the traffic light Grand Prix because of it, I'd argue you should have been able to take it back and get a refund, less useage charges.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 09:58
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QUOTE (facade @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 10:51) *
I wasn't sure about the VED, as the problem was NOx, and as the performance is apparently crippled by the "fix" I'm not sure if the CO2 would go up down or stay the same.

The cheat meant that the on cycle CO2 (which is measured on the same test as the NOx, HC, Particulates etc) wouldn't change, what *** were doing was running the cars on road in a different configuration which improved on road fuel economy/CO2 at the expense of killing people with NOx and particulates, the same would have been true on the test cycle had they tested with that regime. (On a Diesel using EGR to reduce NOx emissions and retarding Injection to reduce particulate emissions both reduce fuel economy/increase CO2 emissions).

Most the fixes have maintained peak power and torque but low end response is adversely impacted (less of an issue on an auto than a manual), in some cases there has been a small increase in on cycle CO2 due to the changes made to make it more robust off cycle, many of those may not trip it over a CO2 breakpoint on VED but I guess some may have.


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seank
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 10:23
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Most people would be amazed at the political intervention.
The laws of physics and chemistry are immutable, but manufacturers can influence reactions by altering fuel/air ratios during combustion, combustion pressures and engine valve opening and closing cycles. I won't bore you with the details.
If a company is asked to focus its attention on CO2 reduction, so that political objectives may be achieved following promises made internationally, for example by a fat, Hull politician at Kyoto, the company will do whatever it can to help the politicians.
Once the required reductions are achieved, those same politicians demand even further reductions, completely unachievable without the use of technology not commercially deliverable.
If a vehicle ECU can be mapped to deliver those CO2 reductions requested, whilst increasing concentrations of NOx about which politicians aren't interested, why not?
Before people start the "what about the children?" and such arguments, let me repeat that the makers have delivered precisely what politicians asked for.
The previous mpg test results were mandated by governments. They defined exactly how the testing was to be performed. Body panel gaps could be taped up, passenger door mirrors removed, passenger seats removed, low-friction oils used etc. The test bore no relevance to how a vehicle would perform on the road. It was done to comply with the strict requirements of a government-mandated test regime.
If you are going to sit an examination and I tell you beforehand precisely which questions I am going to ask you in the exam, what will you do?
If I tell you I'm going to measure exhaust gas emissions during lab testing, and tell you what engine rpm I'll do the tests at, what will you do?
Vehicle ecus, using Siemens and Bosch software, are found across the vehicle parc. To blame VW or any other manufacturer for delivering precisely what was asked of them seems nonsensical.
You don't hear much from the UK or EU about this. Why do you think that is?
I'm biased, as most of you know, but I'm also factually correct.
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typefish
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 10:28
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Can I take the government and/or BMW to court to demand money to replace my 2014 Euro 5 car with a 2014 Euro 6 car, which was bought under the premise of it being able to drive in places like London 15 years in the future?

Is that a "no" I hear?
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seank
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 10:35
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I'd also want to ask Jonah McRuin and Bliar why they persuaded so many people to buy diesel-engined vehicles, only to renege and try to castigate such owners less than a decade later.
Governments take massive taxes whenever people buy things such as cars.
If you look at the price of fuel today, it's around £1.35 per litre at the pumps.
A barrel of oil costs $75 today. That is 150 litres and 50c per litre.
Add a few cents for refining, transport and retailer profits and you might want 30p for the fuel, per litre.
The extra £1.05 per litre is tax.
350% tax....
What else do you know that has that level of tax applied?
The very fuel that folks use to go to work, go shopping, go to hospital et seq.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 10:35
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QUOTE (seank @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 11:23) *
If a vehicle ECU can be mapped to deliver those CO2 reductions requested, whilst increasing concentrations of NOx about which politicians aren't interested, why not?

Because they are tested at the same time on the same cycle, NOX, particulates, HC, CO all have fixed liits that must be achieved, so you can't cheat on cycle to achieve that.

I won't bore you with the details (emissions development and testing was my day job for a total of about 15 years of my career path)


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seank
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 10:47
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 11:35) *
QUOTE (seank @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 11:23) *
If a vehicle ECU can be mapped to deliver those CO2 reductions requested, whilst increasing concentrations of NOx about which politicians aren't interested, why not?

Because they are tested at the same time on the same cycle, NOX, particulates, HC, CO all have fixed liits that must be achieved, so you can't cheat on cycle to achieve that.

I won't bore you with the details (emissions development and testing was my day job for a total of about 15 years of my career path)

Indeed they are measured at the same time, but you haven't answered my question.
This may help you:
http://ec.europa.eu/growth/content/new-and...-1-september_en
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The Rookie
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 10:55
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The answer is because they cannot, which I did answer. Because emissions compliance comes at a cost manufacturers will always just meet the regs (within their in house conformity targets) so as to minimise the other costs, such as CO2 (reducing NOx increases CO2 its a direct payoff)/fuel economy, AdBlue cost (and the packaging space required for it for a sensible range) being the main costs.

I note from the other thread you work for the criminals against humanity group though, maybe they have brainwashed you as to why it's not as bad as it looks honest guv.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 11:00


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seank
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 11:08
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 11:55) *
The answer is because they cannot, which I did answer. Because emissions compliance comes at a cost manufacturers will always just meet the regs (within their in house conformity targets) so as to minimise the other costs, such as CO2 (reducing NOx increases CO2 its a direct payoff)/fuel economy, AdBlue cost (and the packaging space required for it for a sensible range) being the main costs.

I note from the other thread you work for the criminals against humanity group though, maybe they have brainwashed you as to why it's not as bad as it looks honest guv.

The answer lies in what I have already posted. If you read the link I gave you, you may see:
" The emissions scandal has shown that we need more independence in car testing," at para 2.
Who do you think the testers need more independence from?
The answer is the government(s).
Adblue is not a cost to the manufacturer, but the vehicle user. It is a taxed component, bringing more revenue to the government(s).
Your comment about criminals against humanity is pathetic. We are by far the world's largest vehicle maker. Toyota produces around the same revenue but sells fewer vehicles. The reason for that is we make exactly what buyers choose.
in future, you may buy our electric vehicles, and then will complain about use of rare minerals in battery technology, UK power grid blackouts because of negligible generation infrastructure etc.
No matter what I write in response to you, you're never going to be happy. Some folks like each other and some do not.
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Dwain
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 11:32
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I sufferd badly from Dieselgate, I got rid of my 50Mpg Diesel car, saving the world in performing that action.

Now I drive a 25Mpg petrol car, I have to fill up soooooooo often, it's really depressing. But at least my emissions are clean! Well some of them are smile.gif
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Slapdash
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 12:07
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"The extra £1.05 per litre is tax."

Your random costs are just that.

Fuel duty is 57.95p litre. It is actually paid by the producer or importer.

With diesel at 1.33 this makes the tax take 22.17 vat plus 57.95 duty. Total 80.12p.

Of course given a large amount of fuel is used commercially quite a lot of the vat is reclaimed.

I guess if you want to get to a higher figure you could include the taxes on extraction which vary considerably.


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The Rookie
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:35
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Adblue is a cost to the manufacturer, just the same as having poor fuel economy is a cost to the manufacturer, having a high usage/low range of adblue impacts the perceived value of the car and therefor sales price and profits.

VAG committed crimes, and the result of those crimes (in a structured, deliberate and prolonged manner) were earlier deaths for a significant number of people, independent research has suggested as high as 10,000, if that’s not a crime against humanity what exactly is, it’s not pathetic it’s bl**dy serious, that’s why it’s cost them over €20B for them criminality. I know they pay your wages but you can’t change that fact.

As for independence in testing that was a major issue for Germany, in most countries the testing agency does no other work for the manufacturers, in Germany TUV does a lot of other consultancy work and as such would have a commercial problem if it tried to clamp down in its role of testing agency, I have friends who were involved in other aspects of testing and also in the clean up and they were shocked at how lax some of the enforcement had been. Governments weren’t actually the issue there.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:38


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Ocelot
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 15:58
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QUOTE (seank @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 11:35) *
I'd also want to ask Jonah McRuin and Bliar why they persuaded so many people to buy diesel-engined vehicles, only to renege and try to castigate such owners less than a decade later.


Apparently they were advised that carbon dioxide was a bad thing, and diesels produce less of it than petrol cars.

Ten years later, nitrogen dioxide is considered worse, and they produce more of it.
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seank
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 19:26
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QUOTE (Ocelot @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 16:58) *
QUOTE (seank @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 11:35) *
I'd also want to ask Jonah McRuin and Bliar why they persuaded so many people to buy diesel-engined vehicles, only to renege and try to castigate such owners less than a decade later.


Apparently they were advised that carbon dioxide was a bad thing, and diesels produce less of it than petrol cars.

Ten years later, nitrogen dioxide is considered worse, and they produce more of it.

Hmm, so CO2 or plant food, as it's commonly called, is worse than nitrous and nitric acid. I wonder who advised them that?
I note that UK students rate 26th place on the Pisa comparison tables...
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Ocelot
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 20:07
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QUOTE (seank @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 20:26) *
QUOTE (Ocelot @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 16:58) *
QUOTE (seank @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 11:35) *
I'd also want to ask Jonah McRuin and Bliar why they persuaded so many people to buy diesel-engined vehicles, only to renege and try to castigate such owners less than a decade later.


Apparently they were advised that carbon dioxide was a bad thing, and diesels produce less of it than petrol cars.

Ten years later, nitrogen dioxide is considered worse, and they produce more of it.

Hmm, so CO2 or plant food, as it's commonly called, is worse than nitrous and nitric acid. I wonder who advised them that?
I note that UK students rate 26th place on the Pisa comparison tables...


Don't know, but presumably climate scientists, as CO2 is considered a greenhouse gas.
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facade
post Sat, 22 Sep 2018 - 09:39
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QUOTE (Ocelot @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:07) *
Don't know, but presumably climate scientists, as CO2 is considered a greenhouse gas.



CO2 became important when Thatcher invented Global Warming as a way to increase taxation- "Warm the Earth as much as you like, as long as you pay tax on how much you do" was pretty much the slogan.
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