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PCN - 32D - Failing to drive in the direction shown by the arrow on a blue sign
nelly30
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:06
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Hi, I got a ticket for driving down a bus only street. The signage is unclear and you will see there is no demarcation that straight ahead of the junction is bus only.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/Eup7rU4krpN1AyiJ7

There was a bus that went in front of me going the same way so view also hampered. I already sent an appeal which they've rejected where I questioned the signage they were referring to as unclear in PCN. As far as I could see I followed rectangular blue signs ordering to go straight ahead.

The response was the sign located far away near Oakfield Rd. Incidentally I did not pass this sign as I came from Station Road on the left.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/wqynkoquionfcmb/2...143848.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/95jhyjzweyozfww/2...150039.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1b7ouycq7bp76nb/2...143650.jpg?dl=0

I've written an appeal for adjudication but any help much appreciated!!

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post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:06
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mickR
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:18
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Thats possilbly the worst signage ive seen in a long time.
So on the left side of the (single carriage) road is a straight ahead arrow and on the right side is a turn right arrow !!
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nelly30
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:28
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QUOTE (mickR @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 21:18) *
Thats possilbly the worst signage ive seen in a long time.
So on the left side of the (single carriage) road is a straight ahead arrow and on the right side is a turn right arrow !!


Exactly MickR!! Looks like someone else got nailed there:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=131564

Cars used to be able to drive down this road but Council have changed now. Also bus lane at traffic lights has a sign under saying "end of bus lane"!!

This post has been edited by nelly30: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 20:32
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 09:59
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Show us your draft appeal and the council photos also get and post the video. There is a flaw in the NoR that might win on its own


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cp8759
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 13:43
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Also the blue sign in question is not a section 36 sign when incorporated into a traffic light assembly (See TSGDR schedule 14, Part 2 item 42) so the council can only pursue a breach of the TMO, it cannot pursue a breach of the sign alone.


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nelly30
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 14:54
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 10:59) *
Show us your draft appeal and the council photos also get and post the video. There is a flaw in the NoR that might win on its own


Please see below:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5mqx7uhefm6ixm9/P...202020.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zr7h5z5v8dh5i9k/P...appeal.pdf?dl=0



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 14:43) *
Also the blue sign in question is not a section 36 sign when incorporated into a traffic light assembly (See TSGDR schedule 14, Part 2 item 42) so the council can only pursue a breach of the TMO, it cannot pursue a breach of the sign alone.


Thank you cp8759 smile.gif
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 15:13
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IMO your appeal needs to be rewritten, it contains pertinent points but waffles and is a bit disjointed. There are also the points identified by CP and myself to incorporate. I have a few other on the go ATM but will help if you would like. Your appeal needs to be registers by the 15th of June so there is a bit of time yet

Bump the thread if you have heard nothing from me by this time next week.


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cp8759
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 16:25
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I agree with PMB, you should take up his offer of writing an appeal for you.


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nelly30
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 18:50
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Thank you very much!
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nelly30
post Wed, 3 Jun 2020 - 08:16
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Bump
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 3 Jun 2020 - 09:55
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QUOTE (nelly30 @ Wed, 3 Jun 2020 - 09:16) *
Bump


don't worry you are on my list. You have until the 15th to register your appeal


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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 11 Jun 2020 - 15:05
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 3 Jun 2020 - 10:55) *
QUOTE (nelly30 @ Wed, 3 Jun 2020 - 09:16) *
Bump


don't worry you are on my list. You have until the 15th to register your appeal


doing today


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nelly30
post Sat, 13 Jun 2020 - 07:30
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Thank you!
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hcandersen
post Sat, 13 Jun 2020 - 10:20
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OP, I'm confused by your account and defence.

The GSV shows clearly that at the lights you were permitted to be in the right hand lane only unless you qualify as a 'bus'. In that lane there is a road marking (which is specified in the regs) which states clearly that all vehicles must turn right.

You didn't.

I've no idea where references to single carriageway road come from in this thread.

So, where were you when you crossed the white line at the lights, in the right-hand of the lanes or the left?

Your argument regarding the - presumably- white on blue rectangular one-way sign situated on the far side of the junction is irrelevant unless you can show that this was a repeater for a sign prior to the junction and prior to the mandatory requirement to turn right conveyed by the road marking.

So, let's be clear. Frankly, IMO your argument is stronger if you were actually in the bus lane at the lights, but we haven't seen the video and so don't know. But if you were in the right-hand lane then I think you would fail as regards the signs being inadequate(signs in the plural, the road marking and the white arrow on blue circle). After all you would have approached the junction in the left-hand lane - if indeed your intention was to go straight ahead- and by the time you were moved to the right by the bus lane road markings you would have had a clear view of the nearer of the blue signs signifying that you must turn right. You would then have moved into a lane with a right-turn only road marking and then.....decided to pull over to the left and drive straight on.

Does the video show any different?

If not, then you'd better hope that the procedural argument regarding the contravention grounds wins the day.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 13 Jun 2020 - 11:19
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HCA I am not confused with the defence and as the appeal needs be registered by Monday, that is perhaps as well

Nelly I will post a draft in a couple of hours Lots of things though unavoidable have been diverting me over the last week or so


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nelly30
post Sat, 13 Jun 2020 - 11:42
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Thank you for input. I cannot see link for video but I also know visibility was heavily reduced as a bus drove directly ahead.

I have revisited site and layout/signage is very ambiguous. I waited at lights this time and white straight arrow is "in your face" as driver.

@Pastmybest - no problem!
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 13 Jun 2020 - 13:25
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Nelly fill in the relevant bits at the top convert to PDF then you can upload it to the tribunal portal when registering your appeal. This must be by Monday the 15th

https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtBHPhdJdppVzS6uPmo...BUSnAA?e=lKbW9k


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hcandersen
post Sat, 13 Jun 2020 - 13:56
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I waited at lights this time and white straight arrow is "in your face" as driver.

In what lane?

You could see the 'right turn only' road marking? You know its meaning?

Good on PMB, but I'm still confused because the OP won't say which lane of two they were in at the lights.

And if in the right, what makes you think you could drive straight ahead, irrespective of signs the other side of lights(the other side of the moon in traffic terms)?

If you didn't see the road marking, that's an issue. But let's have what happened eh, because I'm convinced this could only assist, otherwise if your defence suggests something which the video - which we haven't seen - shows to be false then you would lose any adj sympathy.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 - 13:59
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 13 Jun 2020 - 19:16
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 13 Jun 2020 - 14:56) *
I waited at lights this time and white straight arrow is "in your face" as driver.

In what lane?

You could see the 'right turn only' road marking? You know its meaning?

Good on PMB, but I'm still confused because the OP won't say which lane of two they were in at the lights.

And if in the right, what makes you think you could drive straight ahead, irrespective of signs the other side of lights(the other side of the moon in traffic terms)?

If you didn't see the road marking, that's an issue. But let's have what happened eh, because I'm convinced this could only assist, otherwise if your defence suggests something which the video - which we haven't seen - shows to be false then you would lose any adj sympathy.



I'm not confused because the photo on the PCN shows the OP in the RHL so my draft reflects this ( even if I don't come right out and say it)


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hcandersen
post Sat, 13 Jun 2020 - 19:32
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Perhaps the OP should answer and not leave you in limbo!

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 - 19:33
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