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Bus lane ticket
I-LOV-MONEY
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 11:23
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Hi. I have just received notification that I was caught using a bus lane during the prescribed period (9.55am - restrictions finish at 10am). I have no excuse, (I was taking my wife to a hairdressing appointment at 10am). I know the bus lane. There are signs at the beginning of the stretch of road, and it is clearly marked on the road itself. I am using to driving along it when it is not in effect, because other motorists don't ! I just didn't think that morning. It was a little later in the day that I suddenly realised what I had done, but it was obviously too late then.

I presume I can do nothing more than to pay up within the 14 day period. I could, I suppose, get another 14 days by trying to suggest that their clocks are wrong, but no doubt they are regular tested.


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post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 11:23
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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 17:06
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You've been round the block a few times and you know how the forum works. Show us all the paperwork, the video and a link to the location on google street view and let's see if we can find anything.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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I-LOV-MONEY
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 17:12
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Okay, will do. However, if I link to the video, that will identify my reg no. I don't have software that can edit a video, but I can try with the still photos.


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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 17:45
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QUOTE (I-LOV-MONEY @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 18:12) *
Okay, will do. However, if I link to the video, that will identify my reg no. I don't have software that can edit a video, but I can try with the still photos.

Hundreds of people see your number plate every day and this presumably does not cause you an issue? If you have a look on other bus lane threads you'll see people post these videos all the time and it's never caused a problem to anyone.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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I-LOV-MONEY
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 18:15
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PCN -

Two photos of car in the bus lane -




I had already masked the number plate in the photos before seeing your message.

https://barnetocm.itsvc.co.uk/PCN/GetPartia...CC201BF331A8BB8
The video - https://barnetocm.itsvc.co.uk/PCN/ViewImages
I am not sure you will be able to get the video from that. Should I send the PCN number and reg no. separately and the Council's weblink (I thought we weren't supposed to identify ourselves on the forum ..or is it just for private parking tickets?)

Streetview - Having diffiuclty in loading the URL. It is the A5 (399 Edgware Road, NW9).

BTW The website that I use to reduce the size of the pics, tinypic.com is closing. Do you or anyone else know of another free site?


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stamfordman
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 19:18
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If you tell me your car reg I'll pay your PCN.

Only kidding!

Anyway we can't see your stuff

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

Put videos on Youtube, Imgur or such like.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 19:20
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I-LOV-MONEY
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 21:46
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Drat, I thought I was onto a winner if you would pay my PCN !
Strange you can't see anything from my last post. I can see the photos, but not the video.

This is the PCN https://ibb.co/Lkq89Nf

Here are two photos of my car in the bus lane (I blanked out the reg no before cp8759 suggested I didn't need to.
https://ibb.co/7rWhMhQ
https://ibb.co/0q78jSh


This is the video https://tinyurl.com/yyqx7jv5

Hopefully all will work this time.

This post has been edited by I-LOV-MONEY: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 21:49


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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 17:17
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You need to download the video, use flash video downloader for google chrome http://bit.ly/2ssa49D or firefox https://mzl.la/2FrDltz and then upload it to youtube or a similar site.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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I-LOV-MONEY
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 23:01
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 18:17) *
You need to download the video, use flash video downloader for google chrome http://bit.ly/2ssa49D or firefox https://mzl.la/2FrDltz and then upload it to youtube or a similar site.


I use Firefox rather than Chrome. Unfortunately the link doesn't seem to work.
I have never uploaded anything to You Tube before - there's always somethig new to learn!


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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 23:43
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Try https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/ad...ideodownloader/


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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I-LOV-MONEY
post Sun, 11 Aug 2019 - 17:56
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 11 Aug 2019 - 00:43) *

I have just had a look at this and it requires permission to access a lot of personal information - data files, browsing history etc.. I would rather not.
I will send you a Private Messsage so that you can look at the video with my login information. I see nothing of significance other than my car driving down the road in the bus lane!


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cp8759
post Sun, 11 Aug 2019 - 18:25
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Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1d2cSdWAdM

Top tip: On Barnet's video player, you can simply right-click the video and then click "save video" - you know for next time.

The one thing I can tell you, based on the video, is that you should probably pay the discount. You've obviously gained an advantage by passing several vehicles in the normal traffic lane, an adjudicator would not look kindly upon this. You could post the back of the PCN so we can check for errors in the small print - but it would have to be a rather fatal error given how clear-cut the contravention is.

QUOTE
Why is it I can put my vehicle details on the site when the ticket was issued by a local council, but with a PPC mask it?

For PPC tickets by masking the identity of the driver, you're making it immensely harder for the PPC to identify who they should sue (it's a bit more complicated than that in reality but that's the basic principle).

For a council PCN however, the council doesn't need to identify anyone, because by Act of Parliament the owner of the vehicle is liable no matter who was driving, the registered keeper (as per DVLA) is presumed to be the owner unless they can show that they're not, and the council already has all the evidence it is going to use against you, so identifying yourself as the driver (or indeed putting any other evidence you might use on a public forum) is not going to hurt your case.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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I-LOV-MONEY
post Sun, 11 Aug 2019 - 18:45
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 11 Aug 2019 - 19:25) *
The one thing I can tell you, based on the video, is that you should probably pay the discount. You've obviously gained an advantage by passing several vehicles in the normal traffic lane, an adjudicator would not look kindly upon this. You could post the back of the PCN so we can check for errors in the small print - but it would have to be a rather fatal error given how clear-cut the contravention is.


Thanks very much. Is it worth suggesting their clock maybe wrong, just to delay the inevitable ?

This is the reverse of the PCN. Can't see anything that looks untoward.

https://ibb.co/Cs0qjTr


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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 10:04
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There's a will / may flaw on the PCN, it states that they "will" issue an enforcement notice, but they're only allowed to say that they "may" serve an enforcement notice.

This might seem like semantics but the tribunal has explicitly ruled that this is not the case, and the difference is a substantial one. Of course the council will never accept their PCN template is wrong, but this ground is usually successful at the London Tribunals if argued properly. Send the draft below, together with copies of http://bit.ly/2HPEbld and http://bit.ly/2UoMhXC, also keep all italics formatting exactly as I've used it below.

--------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

I accept that the contravention is made out, although I would point out that the contravention took place a mere four and a half minutes prior to the end of the restriction and this is a mitigating factor.

However in any event liability is denied because the Penalty Charge Notice served by the enforcement authority does not comply with section 4(3)(3) of the London Local Authorities Act 1996, which provides that a PCN must state:

"that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an enforcement notice may be served by the council or, as the case may be, Transport for London on the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle;"

The PCN served by the enforcement authority instead asserts that:

"If the penalty charge remains unpaid, an Enforcement Notice will be sent to the owner of the vehicle".

The tribunals have long held that where the legislation provides an enforcement authority may take a step, the council cannot fetter its discretion by asserting that it will take that step. It has further been ruled that the difference between the words "will" and "may" is substantive and not a matter of semantics, see David Greenberg v London Borough of Barnet (216022028A, 29 June 2016) where the tribunal held as follows:

"...the inclusion of the word 'will' imports a fixed and persistent intent, as distinguished from 'may' which expresses a possibility.

The legislature chose the word may, to my mind, to reflect the fact that the Enforcement Authority is bestowed with discretion which may be invoked at any stage, thus the issue of a charge certificate cannot be taken as a foregone conclusion.

I do not accept the theory that the word will reflects a greater warning element, since its meaning is distinctly at variance to that of the word may.
...
Each Case is determined upon its individual evidential merit and an Adjudicator's interpretation of the governing law; my finding in this Case is that the Notice of Rejection letter is substantially non-compliant since I consider that there to be manifest distinction between 'may' and 'will' which is substantial as opposed to semantics. Therefore I find the Notice of Rejection to be invalid, thus this Penalty Charge Notice cannot be enforced.
"

The outcome of a discretionary decision cannot be a foregone conclusion, even if in practice that discretion is seldom if ever exercised in the motorist's favour, in James Demery v London Borough of Bexley (2180251300, 25 July 2018) the adjudicator said:

"It seems to me that the Authority has been given a discretion to issue a Charge Certificate and the PCN must state that this discretion exists. The PCN cannot give the impression that there is no such discretion even if the reality is that such a discretion will not be exercised in the motorists' favour."

The PCN served in this instance wrongly conveys that there is no discretion and absent payment, service of an Enforcement Notice is a foregone conclusion. As the Penalty Charge Notice served in this instance does not comply with the requirements of the 1996 Act, liability to pay the penalty does not arise and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

The council is reminded that a templated response which simply asserts that the PCN is compliant, but which fails to deal with the issues outlined above, will likely be seen by the tribunal as a failure to consider the representations made. If the council officer dealing with this representation lacks the legal knowledge and training to deal with the specific issues raised, it would be best for them to refer this case to a senior appeals officer.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 10:05


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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I-LOV-MONEY
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 10:28
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Wow - thanks !!! I never imagined there would be anything wrong with their 'instructions'. Should I send it by e-mail or by post (if the latter, I will get a Certificate of Posting). Should I send it nearer the 14 day reduced charge date? Finally, should I print out the documents in the links or just give them the links for them to go to for themselves?


I wonder if other Councils have changed their wording to comply? If this suceeds, then surely hundreds (?) of motorists in Barnet can challenge their tickets !

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 11:04) *
There's a will / may flaw on the PCN, it states that they "will" issue an enforcement notice, but they're only allowed to say that they "may" serve an enforcement notice.

This might seem like semantics but the tribunal has explicitly ruled that this is not the case, and the difference is a substantial one. Of course the council will never accept their PCN template is wrong, but this ground is usually successful at the London Tribunals if argued properly. Send the draft below, together with copies of http://bit.ly/2HPEbld and http://bit.ly/2UoMhXC, also keep all italics formatting exactly as I've used it below.

--------------


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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 12:38
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There are so many flaws on council PCNs that I've put a database together, see http://bit.ly/2ALghSS - there's far too many of them for any one of us to remember.

The PCN only gives you the option of challenging by post, so it's probably best to do that and get a certificate of posting. They won't follow any links, so it's better to print out and include the London Tribunals cases. They're likely to send you a stock rejection letter in any event but it sets things up nicely for the tribunal.

You are correct in saying that hundreds, possibly thousands of people could challenge their Barnet bus lane penalties, but as 99.9% of people simply pay up the discounted amount straight away the council has little incentive to fix their template.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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I-LOV-MONEY
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:25
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Out of interest what is section 31 (2) ( c) that you refer to under LB Barnet ? Presumably you have had no response yet from the ICO.
Further thought on my case. You previoiusly said I "gained an advantage by passing several vehicles in the normal traffic lane, an adjudicator would not look kindly upon this." Would the technicality that you refer to on the PCN mean that s/he would have to rule in my favour as the PCN is wrongly worded, even though I was in the wrong?


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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:36
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Get the challenge in within the 14 days and they will reoffer the discount, I bet they c**k up further in their response and make the point stronger.

They do give the correct term on the front of the PCN so 50/50 ATM


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I-LOV-MONEY
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:43
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Well I have nothing to lose, and all to gain as they may cancel the ticket or at the very least I get another 14 days to hold on to my money!


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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:46
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QUOTE (I-LOV-MONEY @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 15:25) *
Out of interest what is section 31 (2) ( c) that you refer to under LB Barnet ? Presumably you have had no response yet from the ICO.

The council are relying on section 31(2)(с) here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/section/31 to withhold some of the information and I cannot fault them for that. The case is now with the ICO because some NoRs we've seen on here are blatantly written with templated wording, but the templated wording we've seen is neither included in their previous FOI disclosure, nor is it caught by the section 31(2)(с) exemption, so there must be other templates that they've not told us about.

QUOTE (I-LOV-MONEY @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 15:25) *
Further thought on my case. You previoiusly said I "gained an advantage by passing several vehicles in the normal traffic lane, an adjudicator would not look kindly upon this." Would the technicality that you refer to on the PCN mean that s/he would have to rule in my favour as the PCN is wrongly worded, even though I was in the wrong?

Where a technical ground of appeal is made out and the paperwork issued by the council is invalid, the tribunal has to rule in your favour even if the contravention is banged-to-rights and you were in the wrong. This has been confirmed by the High Court.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:47


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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