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Congestion unable to leave car park, Brintina bw legal
Hockeymonkey15
post Thu, 2 Dec 2021 - 20:25
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Hi All,

In 2019 I parked in a britiana car park in MK. I was at my car before the ticket expired but due to congestion in the car park I was unable to leave for 30 mins. I was unable to get throuh to someone on the phone that evening to inform.

Anyway the fine came through and I replied explaing the above
They asked me to appeal it got rejected. I then asked them to review cctv images at that time of the carpark and to see if they had a sudden spike in tickets at that time. They refused to comply with this. As they didn't check this. I foolish ignored the letters under some bad advice.

I'm now being taken to court. Any advice? Should I pay? Do you think I cam appeal.

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post Thu, 2 Dec 2021 - 20:25
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The Rookie
post Thu, 2 Dec 2021 - 20:30
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1/ It’s an invoice, not a fine
2/ They were guaranteed to reject, no money in accepting
3/ They have no CCTV to review.

When you say you are being taken to court, what EXACTLY do you now have?

Appeal is the wrong word, you assemble your reasons why you don’t owe the amount claimed (under contract for parking).


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mickR
post Thu, 2 Dec 2021 - 20:37
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post up all correspondence with your name address, car details and any ref No. removed
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Jlc
post Thu, 2 Dec 2021 - 21:35
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Your defence centres around 'frustration of contract'. That is you could not comply with the contract (to leave the car park within X time) due to factors outside your control.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 08:10
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As they didn't check this. I foolish ignored the letters under some bad advice.

Not necessarily.

The law is that the creditor may write to the keeper to inform them that the driver has incurred a parking charge for the reason set out in the notice whose correct title is Notice to Keeper. This also invites the keeper to provide the driver's details to the creditor or for them to pay the charge - or anyone else for that matter. The notice, not an invoice but notice, also describes any dispute resolution procedure which the creditor offers, including 'appealing' to them. Finally the notice states that if the charge is not paid and whether before or after an 'appeal' the creditor still does not know the driver's details then they have the right in law to pursue the keeper in lieu of the driver.

And that's where it and parking law end.

There is no prescribed procedure for pursuing a keeper and creditors have weird ideas about what's allowed (whether in law or as a condition of their membership of an Approved Operator Scheme), but the bottom line is that if they believe that the keeper is liable then they may issue proceedings. However, the law prescribes a preliminary step known as a Letter before Action or similar which requires them to state their claim and describe and set a period for settlement failing which the claim will be registered with the court.

So as we don't know what 'the letters' were about - but we can have a damn good guess - we don't know whether a claim has been lodged with the court or whether a LBA has been issued or whether they're still huffing and puffing with dire threats of hanging, drawing and quartering.

Hence why we need to see the latest document(and the Notice to Keeper if you have it).

As regards any defence against the parking charge itself, how many spaces are there in the car park? If you are to persuade a judge that you exited your parking space in time but were prevented from leaving the car park before parking rights had elapsed then if this was due solely to internal car park queuing you won't succeed if it's the size of a postage stamp. But if internal queuing was wholly or mainly due to cars not being able to exit the car park then this evidence would have been captured by cameras monitoring the exit, which is probably the only evidence they have of the parking charge itself, so it must be available.
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Hockeymonkey15
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 10:50
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Thanks everyone for the quick reply.

I'm afraid I don't have the original letter from brintina.

I did ask them if they seen a peak notices raised with in that hour and for tthem to review the cctv. But they wouldn't.

I have been a sent a claim form from the business centr and if ignore could result in a cc. I think the above is my only means of defence.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 11:00
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 08:10) *
The notice, not an invoice but notice,

Of course it's an invoice, it can also be a notice!

"An invoice, bill or tab is a commercial document issued by a seller to a buyer, relating to a sale transaction and indicating the products, quantities, and agreed prices for products or services the seller had provided the buyer. Payment terms are usually stated on the invoice."
Yup, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, odds on it's a duck!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 11:02
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QUOTE (Hockeymonkey15 @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 10:50) *
I did ask them if they seen a peak notices raised with in that hour and for tthem to review the cctv. But they wouldn't.

As part of your defence you need to point out that they were being unreasonable - and progressed to a claim without need.

PPC's aren't interested in trying to 'resolve' parking matters - they just want paying with the minimum grief and involvement.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 11:03


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Hockeymonkey15
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 11:24
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https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/v6IRZI5lVkbC[img]

https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/v6IRZI5lVkbC[/img] url for the letter
.. should I just pay it... just feels wrong
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The Rookie
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 11:30
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No-one is suggesting you just pay it, we are saying you have a good case, you just have to approach it right.

Yes it is wrong.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Hockeymonkey15
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 12:11
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OK thanks:)

QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 11:02) *
QUOTE (Hockeymonkey15 @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 10:50) *
I did ask them if they seen a peak notices raised with in that hour and for tthem to review the cctv. But they wouldn't.

As part of your defence you need to point out that they were being unreasonable - and progressed to a claim without need.

PPC's aren't interested in trying to 'resolve' parking matters - they just want paying with the minimum grief and involvement.

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Sheffield Dave
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 12:16
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Note that they won't have CCTV. They just have ANPR cameras which snap a picture of a car and its number plates each time it detects a plate
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Hockeymonkey15
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 12:33
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In a email where I requested them review. I had the below reply from this I have assumed they do

"Please be aware we are unable to provide you CCTV, we can only provide this information to the police or an insurance company."
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The Rookie
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 12:42
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And you expect that to be truthful?

Have you not learnt yet,
rule 1, PPCs lie
rule 2, I refer you to rule 1.

THEY WON'T HAVE CCTV.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
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Hockeymonkey15
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 12:44
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Member No.: 114,938



I am unable to appeal I till you answer the below question which you have ignored several times.

1. Have you had an increase in parking tickets with in the same time frame on that day.

2. I am still yet to see any photographic evidence .

Kind regards
Show quoted text
Good Afternoon.

As previously advised, should you not agree with the outcome of your appeal, you can submit an appeal to POPLA. (Option 3 on appeal outcome).

Additionally we do not have to provide you with any further information. You can appeal to POPLA without any of this requested information.

Please be aware photographic evidence of your contravention is visible on your PCN.

Britannia Parking have no further comments to add, future correspondence may be read but not responded to.

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The Rookie
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 12:55
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NO.....

This is not an 'appeal' it's a reason why your invoice won't be paid, you know what happened and don't need any 'evidence'. Not least as civil courts don't work that way.

Please tell me you didn't send that, the aim is to appear informed and not the opposite.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
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Sheffield Dave
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 13:36
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Joined: 20 May 2013
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You still haven't answered the question as to what exactly you mean by "I'm now being taken to court". What precise stage are you at? letter before claim? Claim form? Acknowledged service? What?
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Hockeymonkey15
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 13:53
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Hello, I have attached a link to letter . Have a look a few posts up. It's a claim form
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Hockeymonkey15
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 14:31
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Thanks for the reply. The letter is now uploaded to a link. It was a multi story. 4 5 high.


Thanks

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 08:10) *
As they didn't check this. I foolish ignored the letters under some bad advice.

Not necessarily.

The law is that the creditor may write to the keeper to inform them that the driver has incurred a parking charge for the reason set out in the notice whose correct title is Notice to Keeper. This also invites the keeper to provide the driver's details to the creditor or for them to pay the charge - or anyone else for that matter. The notice, not an invoice but notice, also describes any dispute resolution procedure which the creditor offers, including 'appealing' to them. Finally the notice states that if the charge is not paid and whether before or after an 'appeal' the creditor still does not know the driver's details then they have the right in law to pursue the keeper in lieu of the driver.

And that's where it and parking law end.

There is no prescribed procedure for pursuing a keeper and creditors have weird ideas about what's allowed (whether in law or as a condition of their membership of an Approved Operator Scheme), but the bottom line is that if they believe that the keeper is liable then they may issue proceedings. However, the law prescribes a preliminary step known as a Letter before Action or similar which requires them to state their claim and describe and set a period for settlement failing which the claim will be registered with the court.

So as we don't know what 'the letters' were about - but we can have a damn good guess - we don't know whether a claim has been lodged with the court or whether a LBA has been issued or whether they're still huffing and puffing with dire threats of hanging, drawing and quartering.

Hence why we need to see the latest document(and the Notice to Keeper if you have it).

As regards any defence against the parking charge itself, how many spaces are there in the car park? If you are to persuade a judge that you exited your parking space in time but were prevented from leaving the car park before parking rights had elapsed then if this was due solely to internal car park queuing you won't succeed if it's the size of a postage stamp. But if internal queuing was wholly or mainly due to cars not being able to exit the car park then this evidence would have been captured by cameras monitoring the exit, which is probably the only evidence they have of the parking charge itself, so it must be available.

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mickR
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 15:26
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QUOTE (Hockeymonkey15 @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 13:53) *
Hello, I have attached a link to letter . Have a look a few posts up. It's a claim form


where?
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