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Entrapment - Alleged 85mph in 70mph Zone, Threads merged
Morro4800
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 11:17
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Received NIP Letter from Essex Police.

Asking for Driver?

The Road has no Speed Camera Signs, no place Police Car could be sited near bridge. No anything along road and no brake lines to measure speed if I ever received the photos?

Struggled to find the site online where this alleged incident took place?

Canons Bridge off A130???

Police called me this week were rude, No Caller ID Call and slammed phone down on me when they did not like what I was saying!

Can you advise please?

Unknown caller called me on 29th October 2019 telling me they were from Essex Police, not giving a name or any contact details.

It was quite a bizarre call and made lots of assumptions!

The individual said that information regarding an offence was sent previously and that is all the police needed to send. I responded by saying that if this was the case then this is all that the Police will provide a potential Court of Law?

I was told no the Police would provide the court Photographic evidence. I replied then how can someone except An alleged Police Offence if they don’t have all the relevant photograph and or information to Remember an alleged offence let alone make a proper defence?

I said I had not asked this matter to go to court but to see the relevant information as to either except the charge or make a proper defence?

The person could not answer the above questions?

(I went back to the location on 30th May 2019 as not aware or remember the location said by the Police. (Son took video of this).

I said there were no Speed Camera Signs, signage, lighting or where a Speed Camera Vehicle could be based. Also there have not been any temporary road signs at this location.

On this basis how can someone remember if they have committed an offence if the place of the alleged Speeding Offence is completely clear of any Speed Cameras, signage and lighting etc?

I said this is a form of entrapment and has most police forces have taken away their speed cameras as it’s not about speeding it’s about making money, Essex Police are one of the few that use Speed Cameras in the Country.

After the comment above the person put the phone down on me!

Siting was Canon Barns Bridge off A130 Essex
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post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 11:17
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Morro4800
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 11:28
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Photographs of Site
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morrisman
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 11:37
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There is no requirement for any signage or lighting. All they are currently ask is that you name the driver of the car at that location and that time.
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666
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 11:40
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QUOTE (Morro4800 @ Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 11:17) *
I said this is a form of entrapment and has most police forces have taken away their speed cameras as it’s not about speeding it’s about making money, Essex Police are one of the few that use Speed Cameras in the Country.

That will come as news to the thousands of drivers caught by cameras every day, all over the country!

Please complete the NIP Wizard, including the Additional Questions, to enable us to provide sensible advice.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 11:42
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There is no requirement for camera signs, there is no entrapment unless a Police officer was actively encouraging you in some way to break the speed limit. No speed limit sign is needed if the national speed limit was in force, which it must have been for a limit of 70mph. Lighting would also be irrelevant unless you are arguing the limit was 30?

Have you received a written notification at all?

The Police phoning you is very very unusual which suggests there is something out the ordinary in your case you've not mentioned, but then it only seesm you had a notice and replied by your obscure comments about responding.

I suspect he put the phone down because you were talking rowlocks about entrapment, signs, lighting etc. He was quite correct about sending out a notification.

Your not entitled to see anything at this stage, so whether you like it or not you accept a fixed penalty or you do not and face a court 'summons' which will cost you a lot more if (when seems likely) you are found guilty.

Nearly all forces use cameras.

To be honest it sounds like you made a bit of a prat of yourself, having enough knowledge to be more of a danger to yourself than having none.

Long on rhetoric, short on facts, some more facts would help, and complete the NIP Wizard as stated in the 'RED THIS FIRST BEFORE POSTING' sticky.



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Steve_999
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 11:56
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QUOTE (Morro4800 @ Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 11:17) *
. . . . no place Police Car could be sited near bridge. . . . .


And then posts photo of a large lay-bye just before said bridge? And, of course, there is the bridge itself!
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NewJudge
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 13:02
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QUOTE (Morro4800 @ Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 11:17) *
Received NIP Letter from Essex Police.

Asking for Driver?

Was it asking for the driver or are you asking us whether it was?

If it was you have an obligation to respond within the time allowed. If you do not, or you respond without unequivocally naming the driver, you face a separate more serious offence. This will result in a court visit and, if convicted, a hefty fine and six points.

QUOTE (Morro4800 @ Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 11:17) *
I was told no the Police would provide the court Photographic evidence. I replied then how can someone except An alleged Police Offence if they don’t have all the relevant photograph and or information to Remember an alleged offence let alone make a proper defence?

You should be offered the opportunity to take a speed awareness course for that speed (provided you have not done one for an offence that occurred in the last three years) or a Fixed Penalty of £100 and three points if you don't fancy the course. You have no right t see any evidence before accepting either of those offers. You have to simply accept the allegation as it stands. If you don't the matter will proceed to court (probably in about six months time). Before you are asked to enter a plea there you will be served with the evidence they intend to rely on to convict you. If convicted in court you face an income-related fine, prosecution costs, a surcharge of 10% of the fine and the same three points. The costs and surcharge alone will amount to more than £100.

The choice you face is to deal with this as suggested or allow the matter to proceed to court (for either speeding or Failing to Provide Driver's details). If you fanny about too much and do not do as the police ask you then the likelihood is it will end up in court.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 13:19
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Given the length of time - the OP went "back to" the location 30.05.2019, and we're now in October, the chances of a speed awareness course being offered seem next to nothing.
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NewJudge
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 15:00
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 13:19) *
Given the length of time - the OP went "back to" the location 30.05.2019, and we're now in October, the chances of a speed awareness course being offered seem next to nothing.

Indeed, I hadn't caught that. Looks like court it is, then (for one thing or the other).
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Logician
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 15:39
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Yes, as a six month delay is quite usual, the OP might expect to hear from the court next month.


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Morro4800
post Fri, 3 Jan 2020 - 18:00
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2019
Date of the NIP: - 11 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 19 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - 2/6/2019
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Partner
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Sent letter dated 22/10/19 to Essex Police asking for photographic/ video evidence & written statement. Essex police called me on withheld number and agreed to send me the above and other documents in which they would rely on if it went to court. Not heard anything from Essex Police or any court until I received Notice of Fine and Collection order dated 20th December 2019. Was not aware of any court date or sent any documents by Essex Police so was advised to put in a Statutory Declaration which I did today. Can’t believe that a) never received any documents or photos from Essex Police which they agreed to provide around October 2019 and b) was notified of any court action and the court cannot admit that a court date was fixed for December 2019?

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • As you are not the person keeping the vehicle you are required to provide such information as is in your power to give, especially the name and addresses of the person who was the person keeping the vehicle at the time of the offence (if you know it). You should also tell them the names and addresses of the possible drivers if you know them. You should ask the police to supply a photo.

    Although the reasonable diligence test doesn't apply to you, because you are the Registered Keeper and have a real connection with the vehicle, the police are likely to take a tougher line so you should send a covering letter explaining the circumstances in more detail. You should reply within the 28 day period.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 18:00:35 +0000
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Jlc
post Fri, 3 Jan 2020 - 18:10
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Quite a lot missing from the story - was the driver named? What offences were pursued? What was the allegation?

What do you mean by ‘putting in a statutory declaration’?

Any particular question?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Irksome
post Fri, 3 Jan 2020 - 18:13
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I assume you’ve been convicted of failing to supply the identity of the driver? What’s your defence to that charge?

You state you’re unsure of the driver - what efforts have you made to identify the driver. Who are the potential drivers and are you one of them?


--------------------
PePiPoo will likely close in October due to issues beyond the control of any contributor to this forum.

You are encouraged to seek advice at https://www.ftla.uk/speeding-and-other-criminal-offences/ where the vast majority of the experts here have moved over to already.
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Fredd
post Fri, 3 Jan 2020 - 18:17
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Is this the same case as your thread back in October, or a different one?


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Morro4800
post Fri, 3 Jan 2020 - 18:22
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Sorry Same case. No convicted of not turning up to court when I never received a court date and never received any information from Essex Police in which to provide a defence!
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NewJudge
post Fri, 3 Jan 2020 - 18:50
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When you say you "put in a statutory declaration" today, did you attend a court or solicitors to swear your declaration or have you simply made an appointment to do so? If you found out about your conviction on Dec 20th you have until next Friday to make your SD. If you leave it until after then you will need to explain why it is being made late. After it has been made it will be up to the prosecution to decide whether to restart the prosecution against you. They will almost certainly do so and if you make your SD in court you may be asked immediately afterwards to enter a plea to whatever charge is made against you.

To help with that a little more info is required. It's not clear whether you ever named the driver. Did you?
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The Rookie
post Fri, 3 Jan 2020 - 18:51
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There is no offence of ‘not turning up to court’, so no you weren’t, you’re talking rowlocks.

You were either convicted of speeding, of failing to furnish drivers details or both, let’s know which eh.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Morro4800
post Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 00:50
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Was asked by the Magistrates Court to make a Statutory Declaration today and to be here at Another Magistrates Court in February 2020.

They told me the Magistrate will listen to why I did not receive paperwork etc from Essex Police and why I was not told about intital court date.

I have been told I will get chance to please guilty and not guilty on the day and court will decide if they hear case then and there or adjourn to another date.

Without any evidence or paperwork I was named driver on initial Document that went back to the police.

I sent letter requesting disclosure of paperwork and photons etc.

Essex Police called me on withheld number and I said is NIP paper the only document you would use in a court of law. To be told no, in which I replied how can someone base a guilty or non guilty plea without the correct evidence as they would In any case and in any court in the land?

It was decided that they would send me the paperwork and photos etc and we would go on from then. Only to find out yesterday that I received no paperwork/disclosure and the case went to court without my knowledge. That’s not justice that’s awful dodgy to say the least!
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The Rookie
post Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 06:26
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Did you name the driver, yes or no, you keep waffling around it without actually answering this one very key question.

Until you bother to tell us we can’t help.

Well also need to know exactly what you were convicted of and what charges you faced which you still haven’t told us.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 10:30
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I'm not sure why you need photo's? Photo's of what? (In regards naming the driver the 'lack' of photo's won't be a defence)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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