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Reduced speed not clearly signed
stewpots
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 13:45
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Speeding tickets are like buses , nothing in years then two in a row.

I was done doing 40mph in a 30mph at 2.30am , I didn't see any signs to indicate the speed was 30mph.. on line investigation shows


Its a matter of public record that a 30mph sign is small and hidden and cant be seen at night, where a road goes from 40mph to 30mph

would below be a good argument from government web site...


Speed limits should be evidence-led and self-explaining and seek to reinforce people's assessment of what is a safe speed to travel. They should encourage self-compliance. Speed limits should be seen by drivers as the maximum rather than a target speed.
”””

“”In order to ensure compliance with a new lower local limit, as well as make it legally enforceable, it is important that the limit is signed correctly and consistently. Any new limit should also be accompanied by education and publicity and, where appropriate, effective engineering changes to the road itself. Without these measures, the new limit is unlikely to be fully complied with. “”

While increased understanding and acceptance of why a speed limit applies on a certain road will help compliance, drivers are aided by clear, visible and regular signing which enables them unhesitatingly to know what speed limit is in force.

This post has been edited by stewpots: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 13:46
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post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 13:45
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Jlc
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 13:48
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Is there a system of streetlighting?

How far past the 30 sign was it?

Location?


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 13:51
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GSV?


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stewpots
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 13:58
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 13:48) *
Is there a system of streetlighting?

How far past the 30 sign was it?

Location?


I never saw it, admitted I was the driver . Think I have a good chance, section of road deregulated 2010. Road users have to see speed restrictions to comply, this was on the main A603

Gatso speed camera sited on the A603 about 1/2 mile inside the village going towards Cambridge on a series of bends hidden by trees. Poor street lighting and very small speed limit signs so 30mph limit is not at all obvious (particularly at night).
It's really helpful to control the speed on the bend but unfortunately there are not enough signs before the bend visibly and suddenly speed limit get changed for less than 500 yards from 40mph to 30mph. There must be lot of people getting caught by this camera especially at night, even though are not speeding intentionally.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:14
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QUOTE (stewpots @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 13:58) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 13:48) *
Is there a system of streetlighting?

How far past the 30 sign was it?

Location?


I never saw it, admitted I was the driver . Think I have a good chance, section of road deregulated 2010. Road users have to see speed restrictions to comply, this was on the main A603

Gatso speed camera sited on the A603 about 1/2 mile inside the village going towards Cambridge on a series of bends hidden by trees. Poor street lighting and very small speed limit signs so 30mph limit is not at all obvious (particularly at night).
It's really helpful to control the speed on the bend but unfortunately there are not enough signs before the bend visibly and suddenly speed limit get changed for less than 500 yards from 40mph to 30mph. There must be lot of people getting caught by this camera especially at night, even though are not speeding intentionally.

You haven’t really answered the questions.

1. Is there a system of streelighting? That is, three or more street lamps no more than 200 yards apart.

2. How far into this limit were you when you were caught?

These are important questions. Lack of adequate signage is not a defence if the road is a restricted road. The lack of adequate signage and a small distance into it are factors that can persuade the police not to prosecute or the court not to endorse your licence if convicted.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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BaggieBoy
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:17
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I assume this one: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.1771644,0...33;8i6656?hl=en

Limit signs here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.176551,0....33;8i6656?hl=en

This post has been edited by BaggieBoy: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:21
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Logician
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:53
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I think that makes it clear that the OP has no case for inadequate signage. A course should be offered if the OP has not done one in the past three years, otherwise a fixed penalty.


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stewpots
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:55
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:17) *


Its bedford road Moggerhanger

Speed Camera Details: Truvelo D-Cam sited outside the first houses on the left hand side approx. 500 yards into the 30mph limit (after a 50mph zone) just before you reach The Guinea pub. I've not seen this type of Truvelo before, the yellow box with is smaller than a standard one sits on an arm from the main post while a top the post is a smaller grey box with a single red lens.

Looks like I got my camera mixed up and will incur a unnecessary court fine

I know its not a 'defense; that I didn't see it .

will look for a street view



This post has been edited by stewpots: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:58
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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:06
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No restricted compliant streetlights and a quick scan seems to show one diagram 880 sign before the camera.

The recommended size for speed limit terminal signs used to be 600mm, with the minimum 300mm. The ones there look like 450mm so well within the variance allowed.

You will need to elaborate more about they the signs were "hidden" as in the Streetview link it seems they are some distance away from foliage.

Speed limit signage guidance has changed recently to give much more emphasis on giving "adequate guidance" to the driver of a limit rather than a prescripted minimum number and size of signs. I think if the signs are setup as on GSV you would probably struggle to convince a court that there wasn't adequate guidance, although of course a lot depends on what is there today.

As a very minimum you need to return ASAP and use a dashcam to video the journey so you have a contemporaneous record of the road as it is AND get independent opinion on here or from someone with legal knowledge as to whether they would view it as adequate guidance because it could cost you £1,000 in court if you're found guilty vs £100 for a fixed penalty now.

The other angle worth checking is that there is a valid Traffic Regulation Order that would be needed when they reduced the limit from 40mph to 30mph. It's unlikely to be wrong but as the council will normally email it to you probably worth a shot for the sake of five minutes.

Sorry if that sounds downbeat. I have said before if you feel you have been mislead you will always find the road misleading, but it doesn't mean an independent arbiter will feel the same way.


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My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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peterguk
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:10
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:06) *
a quick scan seems to show one diagram 880 sign before the camera.


Optional in any case.


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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:11
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Apologies

Terminal signs here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.1312689,-...3312!8i6656

Camera here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.1300708,-...3312!8i6656

QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:10) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:06) *
a quick scan seems to show one diagram 880 sign before the camera.


Optional in any case.

Everything is optional now but nonetheless important to consider if you are assessing adequate guidance.


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stewpots
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:25
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Ok its my own stupidity on this one

I didn’t see the camera at night, saw comments about a ‘different camera’ on line and put it in a defense letter posted today.
Street view clearly shows it was 30mph

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@52.12883...67.35h,-9.4p,1z

I tried to call the issuing ticket office as can’t stop the letter going but they close at 3pm

Do you think it will now have to go court if I admit I got the wrong camera and just please guilty. I’ll call them tomorrow

I was going south so it flashed me from other side of road, didn't see any markings but signs clear, I know its not a defense I didn't see the 30 sign its clearly there both ways.

I've probably seen the last houses seen a open fields gone up to 40mph at 2.30am but the zone restriction still applies as you can see further down the road

This post has been edited by stewpots: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:32
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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:40
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Stewpots the only disadvantage you may have is if they take your letter to mean you won't accept a course or fixed penalty and progress the matter straight to court.

A quick call to them saying that you had a moment of madness or whatever should mean you aren't disadvantaged. I'm sure you are not the only person to write back in the heat of the moment!


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Jlc
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 16:47
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QUOTE (stewpots @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:25) *
...in a defense letter posted today.

What's a 'defence' letter? What stage are you at?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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stewpots
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 16:53
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 16:47) *
QUOTE (stewpots @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:25) *
...in a defense letter posted today.

What's a 'defence' letter? What stage are you at?


The letter where is says its going to court

will it still go to court ? surely if I admit my mistake now its good mitigation

I never denied I was the driver etc

I will call them tomorrow
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Jlc
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 17:43
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I presume you're past a course offer / Conditional Offer so, yes, it will go to court. Of course, you can plead guilty should you wish.

But the fixed penalty cost will be gone. It will be around one third of weekly wages, 3 points, £85 costs and £30 surcharge (unless 10% of the fine is larger).

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 17:43


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 17:51
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QUOTE (stewpots @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 16:53) *
I admit my mistake now its good mitigation


You don't appear to have any mitigating circumstances.

A simple guilty plea will be the cheapest way out.


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stewpots
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 11:42
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 17:43) *
I presume you're past a course offer / Conditional Offer so, yes, it will go to court. Of course, you can plead guilty should you wish.

But the fixed penalty cost will be gone. It will be around one third of weekly wages, 3 points, £85 costs and £30 surcharge (unless 10% of the fine is larger).


Yes gave them a call cant stop it going to court

Some cost are fixed but if you say you made a mistake etc etc Hope it wont be too much



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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:58
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Magistrates tend to stick fairly rigidly to sentencing guidelines but a good contrite impression costs nothing.



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My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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