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Nip returned recorded delivery - failure to provide driver information court sunmons
Michaelknightkit...
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:23
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Hello,
I got an NIP october 22nd for speeding. The nip didnt suggest what speed but said excessive speeding it was on a motorway and was received wihin a few daysof the alleged offence.
As i could not determine the driver i wrote a letter to the constabulary naming 4 drivers who it could have been with the nip asking for potential help in identifying a driver with perhaps a picture.
I have heard nothing until now where I have a court date set for march 9th.

The thing is i sent the nip back recorded delivery and i have found the slip. Just checked the royal mail sustem. And it shows that it was delivered to the post office but then no trace afterwards. I have not heard from the police since.

What should I do?
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post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:23
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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:26
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Even if the letter was received, stating there were 4 possible drivers does not discharge your obligation, you have a duty in law to use reasonable diligence to identify the driver. Simply saying "I can't remember who was driving" won't work.

How come you can't remember who was driving, if the NIP was only a few days after the offence? What efforts have you made to identify the driver (aside from asking the police for a picture)?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Michaelknightkit...
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:29
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I was away for a couple of weeks but that is the date it came through the post. Four people could have been driving the car myself included. I thought I was being reasonable in asking for some assitance in identifying the driver. None of the other drivers will admit it was them and I cannot be sure it was me.
The point is the police have not received the Letter or the NIP and I have proof of postage. What do you think would happen in court?
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southpaw82
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:34
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I think you’d stand a good chance of getting six points for failing to name the driver.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Michaelknightkit...
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:38
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Wow that’s pretty cut-throat. I returned the paperwork in the given time recorded delivery with a week to spare fr the 28 days with a view i’d get a little assistance. Do you really think i’m to blame if I genuinely do not know who was driving and explained this in my letter which i posted recorded delivery and have proof of?
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:41
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You would have to convince the bench that you did not know and could not have identified the driver after reasonable diligence.

It's not an impossible task but you will have to attend court and as noted failure will be 6 points and a large bill - £600+.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:42
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QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:29) *
The point is the police have not received the Letter or the NIP and I have proof of postage.


From what you say, it is more likely the point is the police did receive your letter and have charged you based on the letter's contents.

It is quite normal for Recorded Delivery letters not to get signed for when sent to large corporate bodies.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:44


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Michaelknightkit...
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:44
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Hmmm..... that have not received the NIP, now what if the NIP had disclosed me say as the driver. My point is they are trying to prosecute me for failure to identify but I did send the NIP and recorded too of which I have proof.

QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:42) *
QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:29) *
The point is the police have not received the Letter or the NIP and I have proof of postage.


From what you say, it is more likely the point is the police did receive your letter and have charged you based on the letter's contents.

They did not get the letter ive used the royal mail tracking system it didnt getcthere
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:45
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You can prove you didn't name the driver?

Have they only charged the s172 offence? (Is the speeding not listed?)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Michaelknightkit...
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:47
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All i can prove is that I have a copy of the returned Nip and a proof of postage

QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:45) *
You can prove you didn't name the driver?

Have they only charged the s172 offence? (Is the speeding not listed?)

The speeding is listed
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:49
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QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:46) *
All i can prove is that I have a copy of the returned Nip and a proof of postage

Indeed, you may be able to prove the letter entering the postal system but not the contents. I would suggest you don't attempt a defence claiming that you did name the driver - just in case the letter did arrive and it's a tracking issue.

QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:47) *
The speeding is listed

Well that does give you another option. If you do remember driving then you could perform a 'plea bargain' to drop the more serious offence in exchange for pleading guilty to the speeding. What speed/limit was it?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Michaelknightkit...
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:52
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:46) *
All i can prove is that I have a copy of the returned Nip and a proof of postage

Indeed, you may be able to prove the letter entering the postal system but not the contents. I would suggest you don't attempt a defence claiming that you did name the driver - just in case the letter did arrive and it's a tracking issue.

QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:47) *
The speeding is listed

Well that does give you another option. If you do remember driving then you could perform a 'plea bargain' to drop the more serious offence in exchange for pleading guilty to the speeding. What speed/limit was it?

Fair point well put. Well i’ll probably find out on the day in court , i could decide which way to go when i hear the cps variation will i get an opportunity to defend myself?

QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:46) *
All i can prove is that I have a copy of the returned Nip and a proof of postage

Indeed, you may be able to prove the letter entering the postal system but not the contents. I would suggest you don't attempt a defence claiming that you did name the driver - just in case the letter did arrive and it's a tracking issue.

QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:47) *
The speeding is listed

Well that does give you another option. If you do remember driving then you could perform a 'plea bargain' to drop the more serious offence in exchange for pleading guilty to the speeding. What speed/limit was it?

The speed isnt listed never was on the nip just excessive speeding and the limit was 70
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:52
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You are being ask to submit a plea now? Is it via the Single Justice Procedure? (i.e. postal)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Michaelknightkit...
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:53
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Yes mate
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:55
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QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:52) *
The speed isnt listed never was on the nip just excessive speeding and the limit was 70

They don't have to give the speed in advance but if it was something extremely excessive then this may have helped identify the driver. The excess simply sets the sentencing... (3 to 6 points or a ban)

QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:53) *
Yes mate

Pleading not guilty to both offences is the normal procedure. As they do not have evidence as to the driver they cannot convict that unless you plead guilty to it.

...this is why the plea bargain can work. If you plead guilty to the speeding now then that offence is in the bag and they may well still pursue the s172 offence. (So could be 9-12 points in the end depending on the excess)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:55
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Michaelknightkitt you have two problems:

1) It is possible for a recorded delivery letter to be delivered, but for whatever reason it doesn't get signed for, or the signature doesn't get uploaded into the system. You could just phone them and ask them if they got your reply. If they did receive the letter, that is proof that you failed to nominate the driver.

2) If you decide to give evidence and provide the tracking number of your reply, the CPS can cross-examine you on what the contents of the reply were. You cannot lie so you have to tell them you gave them four possible names, but that will be a confession that you did not name the driver.

In either scenario, you'll be found guilty.

Before replying to the s172 notice you should have made every diligent effort to identify the driver, this includes thinking back to the date in question, trying to rebuild your movements on the day, speaking to anyone who might have been driving, checking shopping receipts / bank statements, checking if you have location tracking on your phone and if yes seeing if that can jog your memory. It doesn't sound like you did any of this unfortunately. If you are able to work out who the driver is now, there is a remote chance you might be able to get whoever the driver was charged with the original speeding offence and have the s172 prosecution dropped, but if you can't work out who the driver is, I think it's an almost certainty that you'll just get 6 points for failing to identify the driver, in which case you're probably better off pleading guilty as at least you get a discount on the fine for an early guilty plea, and you don't have to pay the CPS for the costs of a full blown trial.

It might seem cut-throat, but the reality is if this were not the case, everybody would just say they can't remember who was driving.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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peterguk
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:55
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QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:44) *
Hmmm..... that have not received the NIP, now what if the NIP had disclosed me say as the driver. My point is they are trying to prosecute me for failure to identify but I did send the NIP and recorded too of which I have proof.

QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:42) *
QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:29) *
The point is the police have not received the Letter or the NIP and I have proof of postage.


From what you say, it is more likely the point is the police did receive your letter and have charged you based on the letter's contents.

They did not get the letter ive used the royal mail tracking system it didnt getcthere


As i said, it is quite normal for Recorded Delivery letters not to get signed for when sent to large corporate bodies.

So unless you've called them and confirmed, all you actually know is the letter was not signed for, not that it was not delivered.

Probably best not to suggest you named the driver, since in your openeing post you said:

QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:23) *
As i could not determine the driver i wrote a letter to the constabulary naming 4 drivers


This post has been edited by peterguk: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:57


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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:57
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:55) *
Pleading not guilty to both offences is the normal procedure. As they do not have evidence as to the driver they cannot convict that unless you plead guilty to it.

...this is why the plea bargain can work. If you plead guilty to the speeding now then that offence is in the bag and they may well still pursue the s172 offence. (So could be 9-12 points in the end depending on the excess)

Except if the OP doesn't know who was driving and pleads guilty to speeding when it could well have been someone else, that might amount to perverting the course of justice. The OP can only plead guilty to speeding if he actually believes he was driving.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Michaelknightkit...
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 22:02
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:57) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:55) *
Pleading not guilty to both offences is the normal procedure. As they do not have evidence as to the driver they cannot convict that unless you plead guilty to it.

...this is why the plea bargain can work. If you plead guilty to the speeding now then that offence is in the bag and they may well still pursue the s172 offence. (So could be 9-12 points in the end depending on the excess)

Except if the OP doesn't know who was driving and pleads guilty to speeding when it could well have been someone else, that might amount to perverting the course of justice. The OP can only plead guilty to speeding if he actually believes he was driving.



This is entirely true, looks like i’m stuck between a rock and a hard place, I have zero points and I thought inwas doing right. :0(
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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 22:03
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QUOTE (Michaelknightkitt @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 22:02) *
This is entirely true, looks like i’m stuck between a rock and a hard place, I have zero points and I thought inwas doing right. :0(

Well, is there *any* chance you might be able to work out who was driving?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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