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Help Please Guys., Charged for frosty windows and the rest.
Forensic
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 23:53
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Hi guys,
Going to tell the events as best I can and hope to get any help I can.

Car was parked on public road. Quite frosty and windows needed scraped. I scraped windscreen area which was most of drivers side. Drove the car about ten or so meters to my property where I had planned to go in to pick up something and leave the car to heat up.
At this point my door was opened by a guy who started shouting at me "you shouldn't be driving, you can't see properly" or something along those lines. I was so scared. He had a mate with him and they had clearly had had a drink. Next thing is they both drag me out of my car and won't let me move and one pins me against my car. Along the road from nowhere I had come from a cars hazards are flashing. They look at me and both decide I have somehow hit the vehicle. This is impossible by the way! They then decide I've been drinking which is also impossible. One of them then phones the police while the other physically and aggressively holds me so I can't move and also takes my keys out of the ignition. The police turn up about 15 mins later with sirens and blue lights all blazing. The two drunks tell them their story and leave. Police manage to get a hold of the guy who's cars lights are flashing. I presume they tell him that I have hit his car and ask him if there is any damage. I hear him saying there no damage as far I can see. Police tell him to call tomorrow if damage can be seen in daylight. (Remember I've not even driven past the car).
Police ask me to get in the back of the police car. One officer says "because you have been in an rta I'm required to breathalyse you".
I said "I've not been involved in a rta".
His reply was "is there any medical reason you can't give a breathalyser sample".
Me, "no".
Him, "is there any reason you don't want to give a breathalyser sample".
Me, "no".
So we then go through the process and all clear.

They then get in the front of the police car and one says I'm getting charged with "dangerous driving". Intimates it will be probably be £60 and 3 points. At this point I just want out of the car and go.

Whilst in the car they inform me they have no paperwork with them to fill out. I say I'll pick it up on way home from work one night. They agree. Anyway I never went to pick up anything.

About 3 days ago I've received a letter from Procurator Physical saying he has been informed that I have driven my car in a dangerous manor and has decided he wants to fine me £200 and add 3 penalty points to my licence.

To let you know one of the drunks is a current Police Officer and the other is a retired Police Officer.

Not sure what to do.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank,
Barry
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post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 23:53
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Incandescent
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 22:34
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Is this justice ? I think not ! So two drunks, one an off-duty policeman the other a retired policeman, both well drunk, have a shouting and bellowing session with the OP, they then call in their mates who fit the OP up with a trumped up charge. The OP is breathalised but it is negative, the drunks are must let go. It just stinks.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 22:35
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southpaw82
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 22:36
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 22:34) *
a trumped up charge

The trumped up charge he appears to be guilty of, you mean?


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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 22:58
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 22:34) *
Is this justice ?

The OP isn't disputing the facts, so I would argue that it is.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Incandescent
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:03
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 22:36) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 22:34) *
a trumped up charge

The trumped up charge he appears to be guilty of, you mean?

Sorry I spoke. Clearly what I think of as justice is at variance with the regulars on here who obviously know best. The forces of law and order are ever active on our behalf.
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southpaw82
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:05
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:03) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 22:36) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 22:34) *
a trumped up charge

The trumped up charge he appears to be guilty of, you mean?

Sorry I spoke. Clearly what I think of as justice is at variance with the regulars on here who obviously know best. The forces of law and order are ever active on our behalf.

My apologies for pointing out that you were being somewhat optimistic in calling it "a trumped up charge".


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The Rookie
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:06
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While what went after may have been distasteful, I fail to see how it changes whether or not the driving offence was committed? Perhaps you can explain?


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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:10
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:03) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 22:36) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 22:34) *
a trumped up charge

The trumped up charge he appears to be guilty of, you mean?

Sorry I spoke. Clearly what I think of as justice is at variance with the regulars on here who obviously know best. The forces of law and order are ever active on our behalf.

Sorry you're lost me, are you saying that the law in question is unfair (i.e. it should be permitted to drive around with an obscured windscreen), or that there has been some sort of abuse of process in this case which means the OP has been treated unfairly? A fixed penalty notice spares the accused a criminal conviction, while recognising that he shouldn't have behaved in the manner that he did. I'm not sure what a "more just" outcome would be.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Forensic
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:21
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Just to be clear, I wasn't driving around I drove off the road onto the area across a footpath which I own.

I'm more disputing how I was treated by, at the time two members of the public, which I was distraught at for weeks and its still on my mind. And also why the police did not ask me what happened before they arrived and just continued to go through the motions without listening to me. Also why the charge is £200? I cannot find anywhere a sum for this type of offence.

I came on here to try and get some advice on what you guys in the know would do in a similar situation.

I really appreciate all the responses so far.
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peterguk
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:32
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QUOTE (Forensic @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:21) *
Just to be clear, I wasn't driving around


I fully accept the way you were treated seems to be wrong, however, just to be clear, with regards to the offence, you said:

QUOTE (Forensic @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 23:53) *
Car was parked on public road. Drove the car about ten or so meters


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Forensic
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:36
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:32) *
QUOTE (Forensic @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:21) *
Just to be clear, I wasn't driving around


I fully accept the way you were treated seems to be wrong, however, just to be clear, with regards to the offence, you said:

QUOTE (Forensic @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 23:53) *
Car was parked on public road. Drove the car about ten or so meters



Yes correct but is it justice? And the above letter came more than 8 weeks after the event.

This post has been edited by Forensic: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:40
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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:37
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Actually the OP raises an interesting point. The Fixed Penalty (Amendment) Order 2017 raises the amount of the fixed penalty for an offence under section 41D(b) from £100 to £200, but I can't seem to find a similar provision for section 41D(a). It might be that before 99% of FPNs issued under section 41D are for mobile phone offences, they either don't have a template for £100 or they used the wrong one. In any event it would seem improper for the PF to ask for payment of a fixed penalty amount that is different from the amount prescribed in the Fixed Penalty Order.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:39


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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southpaw82
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:38
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QUOTE (Forensic @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:36) *
Yes correct but is it justice?

That’s a very subjective question. It depends on how you define justice. Ultimately it doesn’t matter, as it’s a question of law, not justice.


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peterguk
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:41
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:37) *
Actually the OP raises an interesting point. The Fixed Penalty (Amendment) Order 2017 raises the amount of the fixed penalty for an offence under section 41D(b) from £100 to £200, but I can't seem to find a similar provision for section 41D(a). It might be that before 99% of FPNs issued under section 41D are for mobile phone offences, they either don't have a template for £100 or they used the wrong one. In any event it would seem improper for the PF to ask for payment of a fixed penalty amount that is different from the amount prescribed in the Fixed Penalty Order.


Offence occurred north of the border. Is relevant Scottish law same as English?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:42


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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:44
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:41) *
Offence occurred north of the border. Is relevant Scottish law same as English?

The Fixed Penalty (Amendment) Order 2017 opens with

"CRIMINAL LAW, ENGLAND AND WALES
CRIMINAL LAW, SCOTLAND"

I'm tempted to say it would be worth calling the PF's office and checking they haven't quoted the wrong amount.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:51


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Churchmouse
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 09:52
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:44) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 23:41) *
Offence occurred north of the border. Is relevant Scottish law same as English?

The Fixed Penalty (Amendment) Order 2017 opens with

"CRIMINAL LAW, ENGLAND AND WALES
CRIMINAL LAW, SCOTLAND"

I'm tempted to say it would be worth calling the PF's office and checking they haven't quoted the wrong amount.

I can't see what he has to lose, but I doubt it will result in the charge being dropped.

Taking a totally dispassionate view, the OP did the crime, so he has no grounds to complain about the time. In the real world, he's been trundled, and the reputation of the authorities involved has been duly tarnished. (But of course, we've only heard the OP's version of the events.)

--Churchmouse
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Mayhem007
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 10:10
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Does the OP have the right, 2 months after the offence, to make a complaint about the two drunk MEN and request charges of common assault against the two. It appears the 2 drunks were disproportionate in handling the incident. I, also, fear that there may be some animosity in the future, given that the OP lives in a small village. Having their physical and agressive attitude recorded may help to alleviate any possible future agression.

However, OP you allegedly committed an offence.


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cp8759
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 12:14
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 09:52) *
I can't see what he has to lose, but I doubt it will result in the charge being dropped.

Taking a totally dispassionate view, if the law provides the correct fixed penalty amount for this offence is £100, the OP should not be made to pay £200 due to an administrative oversight.

For the sake of clarity, I think the OP should call and point out that the correct fixed penalty amount is £100, as he is being accused of an offence under section 41D(a) and the Fixed Penalty (Amendment) Order 2017 only increased the fixed penalty amount for section 41D(b). With a bit of luck they'll look it up and send a further FPN giving the OP the chance to pay £100 and receive 3 points to dispose of the matter.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 21:17


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Ocelot
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 20:26
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The penalty, and the circumstances in which it occurred, seem a bit harsh, but the offence appears to have been committed.

At least it is just a FPN and wasn't DD as originally suggested.

I can't think of any particular defence.
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Forensic
post Tue, 27 Mar 2018 - 11:54
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Hi everyone.

Just to let you know following your kind advice I wrote to the PF and basicaly asked if they had made an administrative error and I recently recieved the responce shown below...
So looks like you have savesd me £100 which is at least some good news.

The agressive way I was treated and the way the Police handled the situation still troubles me, but not much can be done about it I suppose.
I'm concerned that these people feel its ok to physically man-handle people whnever they want.
Thanks,
Barry
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