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Help Please Guys., Charged for frosty windows and the rest.
Forensic
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 23:53
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Hi guys,
Going to tell the events as best I can and hope to get any help I can.

Car was parked on public road. Quite frosty and windows needed scraped. I scraped windscreen area which was most of drivers side. Drove the car about ten or so meters to my property where I had planned to go in to pick up something and leave the car to heat up.
At this point my door was opened by a guy who started shouting at me "you shouldn't be driving, you can't see properly" or something along those lines. I was so scared. He had a mate with him and they had clearly had had a drink. Next thing is they both drag me out of my car and won't let me move and one pins me against my car. Along the road from nowhere I had come from a cars hazards are flashing. They look at me and both decide I have somehow hit the vehicle. This is impossible by the way! They then decide I've been drinking which is also impossible. One of them then phones the police while the other physically and aggressively holds me so I can't move and also takes my keys out of the ignition. The police turn up about 15 mins later with sirens and blue lights all blazing. The two drunks tell them their story and leave. Police manage to get a hold of the guy who's cars lights are flashing. I presume they tell him that I have hit his car and ask him if there is any damage. I hear him saying there no damage as far I can see. Police tell him to call tomorrow if damage can be seen in daylight. (Remember I've not even driven past the car).
Police ask me to get in the back of the police car. One officer says "because you have been in an rta I'm required to breathalyse you".
I said "I've not been involved in a rta".
His reply was "is there any medical reason you can't give a breathalyser sample".
Me, "no".
Him, "is there any reason you don't want to give a breathalyser sample".
Me, "no".
So we then go through the process and all clear.

They then get in the front of the police car and one says I'm getting charged with "dangerous driving". Intimates it will be probably be £60 and 3 points. At this point I just want out of the car and go.

Whilst in the car they inform me they have no paperwork with them to fill out. I say I'll pick it up on way home from work one night. They agree. Anyway I never went to pick up anything.

About 3 days ago I've received a letter from Procurator Physical saying he has been informed that I have driven my car in a dangerous manor and has decided he wants to fine me £200 and add 3 penalty points to my licence.

To let you know one of the drunks is a current Police Officer and the other is a retired Police Officer.

Not sure what to do.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank,
Barry
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post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 23:53
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Logician
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 00:05
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Have you been charged with anything to do with the windows? How do you know this about the two drunks? Did you complain you had been assaulted?


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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 00:34
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Did you tell the police the other driver was drunk? It's standard practice to breathalyse all involved, but it would be particularly odd for this not to take place if you had alleged the other driver was drunk. In those circumstances, the first thing I would have said, before anyone had a chance to leave, is "officer that man has been driving drunk, I will blow into your machine but I want him breathalysed too".


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Stoofa
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 09:53
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 00:34) *
Did you tell the police the other driver was drunk? It's standard practice to breathalyse all involved, but it would be particularly odd for this not to take place if you had alleged the other driver was drunk. In those circumstances, the first thing I would have said, before anyone had a chance to leave, is "officer that man has been driving drunk, I will blow into your machine but I want him breathalysed too".


I could be wrong - but from reading, the two who assaulted the OP are separate from the owner of the vehicle with the hazard lights flashing.
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Mayhem007
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 10:16
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How long after the incident did you receive the documentation from the procurator fiscal.

I take it you drove 10 metres, but was not outside your house at the time of the incident.


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Forensic
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 20:24
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QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 00:05) *
Have you been charged with anything to do with the windows? How do you know this about the two drunks? Did you complain you had been assaulted?


The officer in the car said he was charging me with dangerous driving due to my windows not being clear. The gents live in the same village as me. I know where they were drinking because one told me and I've spoken to the bar staff that where on duty. I wasn't asked anything by the officers about what had happened and clearly they didnt want to listen so I never said anything, I was distraught enough and just wanted to leave.


QUOTE (Stoofa @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 09:53) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 00:34) *
Did you tell the police the other driver was drunk? It's standard practice to breathalyse all involved, but it would be particularly odd for this not to take place if you had alleged the other driver was drunk. In those circumstances, the first thing I would have said, before anyone had a chance to leave, is "officer that man has been driving drunk, I will blow into your machine but I want him breathalysed too".


I could be wrong - but from reading, the two who assaulted the OP are separate from the owner of the vehicle with the hazard lights flashing.


Correct Stoofa, the guys were walking home from the pub, not driving. I just happened to park up as they were reaching the same corner as me.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 20:28
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You have a simple choice, accept the fixed penalty or take it to the court.

Everything that came after the driving isn’t really relevant now.

Are you sure it says £200 and 3points? Also the offence of dangerous driving you state isn’t I believe eligeable for an FPN.
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/fi...enalty-notices/


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Forensic
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 20:30
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 10:16) *
How long after the incident did you receive the documentation from the procurator fiscal.

I take it you drove 10 metres, but was not outside your house at the time of the incident.


Hi Mayhem007, the incident was on the 10th Dec. I believe I received the documentation I think 2nd Feb. I will need to check that for sure though but around about then. I was parked outside a property I own and on land i own when the incident took place.
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Forensic
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 20:42
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 20:28) *
You have a simple choice, accept the fixed penalty or take it to the court.

Everything that came after the driving isn’t really relevant now.

Are you sure it says £200 and 3points? Also the offence of dangerous driving you state isn’t I believe eligeable for an FPN.
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/fi...enalty-notices/


Hi Rookie, yes it says those figures. Not sure what you mean by "after the event isn't relevant" is assault by people and not being asked what happened by the police not relevant at all? And I should pay £200 and get these points?
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The Rookie
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 20:47
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What I meant was anything after the driving event isn’t a defence to any driving offence committed, obvious really?

Dangerous driving isn’t an FPN offence, and I didn’t think any £200 offence carried only 3 points, can you tell us EXACTLY what it alledges?


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Forensic
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:02
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Ah got you.
The only thing is though isthat it wasn't the police that stopped me or opened the door, they came 15 or so minutes later. it was two guys that had been out drinking all afternoon. So it's the words of two intoxicated individuals the police have taken. That's not right in my eyes, but I know how things go.

I'll post a picture tomorrow of the letter.
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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:43
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QUOTE (Forensic @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:02) *
Ah got you.
The only thing is though isthat it wasn't the police that stopped me or opened the door, they came 15 or so minutes later. it was two guys that had been out drinking all afternoon. So it's the words of two intoxicated individuals the police have taken. That's not right in my eyes, but I know how things go.

I'll post a picture tomorrow of the letter.

What the police think is irrelevant, it's down to whether the court believes them. However, from what you say, it does sound that you were technically guilty of driving without a clear windscreen, contrary to regulation 30 of The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986. I would have thought that you would have been charged with that instead of, or as well as, dangerous driving. The problem you have is that the police officer saw the condition of your car, and the drunk witnesses only need to persuade the court that you drove the same car on a road, you cannot testify that you didn't drive on the road as that would be perjury. Even if a witness was mildly intoxicated, he may still be able to persuade the court that you did drive the car on the road, even if only for a few yards.

I'd be interested to see the letter, but from what you've said it appears you only have three choices:

a) Accept a lesser charge (such as due care and attention, or an offence of breaching the Construction and Use regulations) in exchange for the dangerous driving charge being dropped, but I don't know if that's even possible in Scotland; or
b) Plead guilty as charged; or
c) Persuade the court that although you drove on the road with obscured vision, due to the short distance covered and the fact that there was nobody around that behaviour, while maybe falling below the standard of a careful and competent driver, did not in the circumstances amount to dangerous driving.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:57
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The crucial piece of information is what the exact offence on the letter is. Without that you might as well roll a dice.

Suggesting the police were so drunk they weren't capable of witnessing the event is a non-starter as you would need the bar staff to give a statement or possibly witness in court, and I am prepared to bet every drop of whisky in Scotland they won't do that.


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My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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Logician
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 00:16
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As dangerous driving is not a fixed penalty offence, I would guess that the PF is actually talking about a careless driving fixed penalty of £100 and 3 points.


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StuartBu
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 00:56
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 21:57) *
The crucial piece of information is what the exact offence on the letter is. Without that you might as well roll a dice.

Suggesting the police were so drunk they weren't capable of witnessing the event is a non-starter as you would need the bar staff to give a statement or possibly witness in court, and I am prepared to bet every drop of whisky in Scotland they won't do that.


To avoid confusion that means the "witnesses " one of whom was an off duty Cop and the other an Ex Cop.
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Ocelot
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 13:45
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Dangerous driving is a mandatory one year ban (unless it is different in Scotland), so it can't have been that offence. Do you have the exact charge, as Rookie asks?
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Forensic
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 19:45
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Jlc
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 19:53
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Given the windscreen wasn't clear then that's a fixed penalty offer for that offence, nothing else. Seems like you should consider accepting it.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 20:53
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The offence they are chasing is RTA S41D is a very simple one.

QUOTE
A person who contravenes or fails to comply with a construction and use requirement—
(a)as to not driving a motor vehicle in a position which does not give proper control or a full view of the road and traffic ahead, or not causing or permitting the driving of a motor vehicle by another person in such a position, or


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/41D

As by your own admission you drove the vehicle, and it had frost on some of the windscreen, I think the fixed penalty offer is the best one you will get.


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My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 21:55
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Based on the paperwork and the facts as you have described them, I strongly advice you accept the fixed penalty notice.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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