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No NIP or Reminder, Only SJPN
CheshireMatt123
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:46
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Hi All,

My partner and I are in a weird predicament. I've tried searching this forum but can't quite find the same or very similar incident.

Yesterday, my partner received an SJPN with two charges: one for doing 51 in a 40 zone; and another for failure to give information relating to the identification of the driver of the vehicle.

We never received any initial correspondence and this is the first we knew about it. The original incident is said to have occurred on 05/10/2017 and I know that it was me driving from the date and location.

This is where we have the other issue: my partner has been charged with both offences but I'm the one that was driving.

We're not sure how to proceed with this so that I can be charged for the speeding offence only and she has all charges dropped?

Is this even possible? We know we never received the initial letters but have convinced ourselves they have sent them and will have proof they've sent them, which doesn't even matter at that point if we've received them or not.

My partner has had a speeding charge previously, received the necessary letters, filled them in correctly and timely and has done a speed awareness course. This just didn't happen this time around.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Matt
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post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:46
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CheshireMatt123
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 13:42
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 12:44) *
You'r partner either pleads guilty to the S172 offence (bad idea in my opinion) and not guilty to the speeding and gets sentenced accordingly, or not guilty to both and go's to court and defends that allegation as mentioned right at the top of the thread,


Do you think there's any chance that if we provide all my details in the letter and return it with two not guilty pleas that they will just charge me? Or is it a pretty done deal that they will continue to charge her for the S172 offence?

Also the more I think about it, the more I feel like I got fobbed off on the phone earlier. It may be worth another try and be more persistent this time?
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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:50
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QUOTE (CheshireMatt123 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 13:42) *
Do you think there's any chance that if we provide all my details in the letter and return it with two not guilty pleas that they will just charge me? Or is it a pretty done deal that they will continue to charge her for the S172 offence?

It is possible they might just charge you, I would call them and be a bit more persistent. Nobody can tell you for sure what they'll do because it's all down to how clued up the person at the other end is, but in principle their preference should be to prosecute you for speeding rather than prosecuting her for s172. Even if they say no, I would still get her to send a letter naming you as the driver (this would become useful later).


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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CheshireMatt123
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:32
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Small update:

Managed to get through again. I've found that the best time to catch them is around lunch time (no answers all morning - probably dealing with cases or something).

Attempted to get put through to a crown prosecutor but as I'm not the one being charged and I'm not presenting my partner they said that they wouldn't be able to discuss the case with me.

From being more persistent this time it seemed as though she would have put me through had I been my partner or her representation, so that's good news.

Next steps are to contact them again with my partner doing most of the talking at least initially before maybe saying that she gives permission for me to talk on her behalf (if she doesn't feel up to talking - she's quite anxious about this whole thing).

I'll keep you posted with any future updates.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 18:01
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QUOTE (CheshireMatt123 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:42) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 12:44) *
You'r partner either pleads guilty to the S172 offence (bad idea in my opinion) and not guilty to the speeding and gets sentenced accordingly, or not guilty to both and go's to court and defends that allegation as mentioned right at the top of the thread,


Do you think there's any chance that if we provide all my details in the letter and return it with two not guilty pleas that they will just charge me?

You appear to be outside the six months within which they can charge you, so vanishingly unlikely. Especially as from a not guilty plea they wouldn’t know who to charge anyway!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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andy_foster
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 19:48
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 18:01) *
You appear to be outside the six months within which they can charge you, so vanishingly unlikely. Especially as from a not guilty plea they wouldn’t know who to charge anyway!


Is there anything in this thread that lead to you that somewhat dubious conclusion?

QUOTE (CheshireMatt123 @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:46) *
The original incident is said to have occurred on 05/10/2017 and I know that it was me driving from the date and location.



--------------------
Andy

Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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CheshireMatt123
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 10:17
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 18:01) *
QUOTE (CheshireMatt123 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:42) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 12:44) *
You'r partner either pleads guilty to the S172 offence (bad idea in my opinion) and not guilty to the speeding and gets sentenced accordingly, or not guilty to both and go's to court and defends that allegation as mentioned right at the top of the thread,


Do you think there's any chance that if we provide all my details in the letter and return it with two not guilty pleas that they will just charge me?

You appear to be outside the six months within which they can charge you, so vanishingly unlikely. Especially as from a not guilty plea they wouldn’t know who to charge anyway!



QUOTE (andy_foster @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 19:48) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 18:01) *
You appear to be outside the six months within which they can charge you, so vanishingly unlikely. Especially as from a not guilty plea they wouldn’t know who to charge anyway!


Is there anything in this thread that lead to you that somewhat dubious conclusion?

QUOTE (CheshireMatt123 @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:46) *
The original incident is said to have occurred on 05/10/2017 and I know that it was me driving from the date and location.




To clarify I think there is just under two months left before the 6 months runs out. However, the S172 requires a reply within 13 days. I've got a feeling that if the phone calls don't work and we have to return the form then they won't look at it for a while and at that point it may be too late for them to charge me instead, which will lead them to try and convict her for the charges I assume.
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CheshireMatt123
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 16:18
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So another update.

My partner and I attempted to contact CPS once again. We got through to who I assume was the receptionist who has told us that the case has not been sent over to them yet. She has checked all recorded cases and cases that require recording but it's not there. We also informed her that my partner has sent an email to the CPS and the police, which the police responded to saying that the matter had been passed to the courts and the SJPN should be filled in. The email was essentially outlining what we were going to say over the phone had we got the chance. The woman at the CPS informed us that we need to talk to the police, specifically the woman who replied to our email, and that the CPS would also send an email to the police to get in touch with us (and re-forwarded our email to the police despite them already replying to it for some reason). Regardless we got in touch with the police who informed us that the woman who we wanted to get in contact with was on annual leave this week and would not return till next week. The phone number for the office was also unanswered as we assume everyone was in court (her office is the legal office and she is a police prosecutor). Anyway, we gave up for the day.

Later on we received an email from a different police prosecutor who essentially said fill the SJPN in. We contacted the number at the bottom of the email and got straight through to her. My partner spoke to her and long story short, despite saying that I intended to plead guilty to the speeding charge, there is no way this isn't going to court and my partner will be prosecuted for the failure to identify the driver charge (no mention of me at all - I got the feeling they don't care about the speeding charge anymore, but I can't be sure).

I'm pretty sure this avenue has been exhausted now as I can't think of anything else to do but fill the SJPN now. My partner is intending to plead not guilty to both charges, however she is starting to waver and wants all this to be over now as she really doesn't want to go to court. I can't say I blame her as essentially I've brought all this onto her and I literally can't do anything more to get them to charge me instead!

I think what we're looking for now are the options we have and the consequences those actions.

1) Not guilty to both = court, can't plea bargain as she wasn't driving, potentially lose the failure to furnish charge, 6 points + what fines (she is a full time student and unemployed).

2) Not guilty to both = they actually read the letter we would attach and charge me instead (extremely unlikely?)

3) Not guilty to speeding but guilty to failure to furnish = court? charged for failure to furnish then still go to court for speeding charge?

4) Not guilty to speeding but guilty to failure to furnish = charge her for failure to furnish and charge me with speeding (if they read an attached letter)?
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Jlc
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 18:22
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QUOTE (CheshireMatt123 @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 16:18) *
what fines (she is a full time student and unemployed).

A minimum figure of £120/week is used in such circumstances. (So a fine of £120 - on baseline 150% and 33% guilty discount)

Costs of £85, surcharge of £30.

The speeding seems well and truly dead for everyone.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 21:15
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 18:22) *
QUOTE (CheshireMatt123 @ Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 16:18) *
what fines (she is a full time student and unemployed).
A minimum figure of £120/week is used in such circumstances. (So a fine of £120 - on baseline 150% and 33% guilty discount) Costs of £85, surcharge of £30. The speeding seems well and truly dead for everyone.


That is of course for a guilty plea, if found guilty after a not guilty plea, Fine £180, surcharge £30, costs guideline £620.



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Redivi
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 21:37
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S172 is such a nasty conviction causing insurance difficulties for years that she shouldn't plead Guilty if there's the faintest chance of defending it

Unless you're in the position that 3 points would result in disqualification or revocation of your licence, she had nothing to gain by failing to identify you as the driver
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Logician
post Mon, 19 Feb 2018 - 22:58
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I now realise that it was not the CPS you should really be trying to contact but the police prosecutor at the SJPN stage. I would have another go at that path.


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CheshireMatt123
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 18:11
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Hi All,

Before I give another update I just wanted to thank everyone for all their help trying to get this sorted.

Unfortunately, through contacting the CPS and finding that we should be talking to the police, then subsequently contacting them, they are unwilling to budge really. They keep funnelling down the route of filling in the plea form. As a result that's what we have had to do.

Now comes the next part which some of you will probably think is foolish but the pleas we've entered are as follows:

Speeding: Not Guilty
Failure to furnish: Guilty

A bit of an explanation. I'm not sure if I've already said this on the thread but my partner suffers from depression and anxiety. Recently she has made some great strides in battling this but this whole situation has really flared up her anxiety. As a result I've read her through all the options we have and the consequences that will result from them (points, fines, insurance implications, etc.) and for her own health she has decided to plea guilty to the failure to furnish charge in an attempt to avoid any further stress and anxiety and hopefully end this whole situation.

I've explained that, although unlikely, she may still be called into court for the speeding charge which she is okay with defending. We've written a letter to accompany the plea's which probably won't be read or cared about but mainly for cathartic purposes. It's unfortunate really that it's gotten this far simply from not receiving a NIP and I also feel terrible as it's all essentially my fault to begin with. I'll update again when we receive notification of the next steps they're going to take, but in the meantime I'll just be trying to make it up to her.

Once again, thanks everyone for your help, support, guidance and information. You guys are all great and are an excellent help to people like us.

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