PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

No conditional Offer, Threads merged
stewpots
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 12:04
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Member No.: 66,198



I have just got a NIP from a 'mobile unit'

It states if you wish to contest it evidence etc will be produced in magistrates court

Don't i have the right to see the evidence before the magistrates

I dont deny i was driving in the area but i refuse to believe i was doing 86mph in rush hour traffic on A34 its not physically possible
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
5 Pages V  « < 2 3 4 5 >  
Start new topic
Replies (60 - 79)
Advertisement
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 12:04
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Jlc
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:15
Post #61


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,094
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



The link I gave earlier had some particular focus on this exact issue.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:35
Post #62


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,926
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (stewpots @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 12:37) *
This is a legal minefield so paid for advice but getting mixed messages but suggestion plead guilty but ask for it to get struck out seems odd ??

-----------------
That is not out of time.
The deadline is to lay in information before the courts. I suppose that is possible that they did it on the 11th which would be out of time but more likely they did it a few weeks earlier which would be in time.

The single justice procedure notice does not have to be with you within six months. If it were so, that would require the civil service administration of the court system to be a public body as well as the police and that is just not the case.

In any event, it is not grounds to plead not guilty. It is grounds to go to court and try to strike down the prosecution on the basis of abuse.
---------------------------


Can I clarify anything for you?

The advice you have been given is by and large accurate. The documents do not need to be in your hands within 6 months, proceedings need to be "issued" within the six months deadline. So if the paperwork was printed a week before the six month deadline, but you got it in the post a week after the deadline, proceedings are still in time. The civil service administration of the court system is a public body, but that's totally irrelevant and I'm not sure why it was mentioned.

It is correct to say that the point you raise is not in itself grounds to plead not guilty, but if you plead guilty you won't have a chance to have the prosecution struck down as the court will simply go on to sentence you there and then. You lawyer court try and ask the court to delay taking a plea until the issue of abuse has been determined, but I know from experience this will almost certainly be refused and you will be required to enter a plea.

In practice therefore you'll have to plead not guilty, and your lawyer can then raise the issue of abuse of process. My gut feeling is this will be refused, and you'll probably need to make an appeal by way of case stated to the High Court to get an authoritative decision. If you elect to go down this route, you can ask the magistrates court to stay the proceedings until the High Court makes a decision one way or the other.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stewpots
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 14:00
Post #63


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Member No.: 66,198



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:35) *
The advice you have been given is by and large accurate. The documents do not need to be in your hands within 6 months, proceedings need to be "issued" within the six months deadline. So if the paperwork was printed a week before the six month deadline, but you got it in the post a week after the deadline, proceedings are still in time. The civil service administration of the court system is a public body, but that's totally irrelevant and I'm not sure why it was mentioned.

It is correct to say that the point you raise is not in itself grounds to plead not guilty, but if you plead guilty you won't have a chance to have the prosecution struck down as the court will simply go on to sentence you there and then. You lawyer court try and ask the court to delay taking a plea until the issue of abuse has been determined, but I know from experience this will almost certainly be refused and you will be required to enter a plea.

In practice therefore you'll have to plead not guilty, and your lawyer can then raise the issue of abuse of process. My gut feeling is this will be refused, and you'll probably need to make an appeal by way of case stated to the High Court to get an authoritative decision. If you elect to go down this route, you can ask the magistrates court to stay the proceedings until the High Court makes a decision one way or the other.



Just spoke to a lawyer
There taking a test case to the high court. The only difference was the Single Justice Procedure Notice was served two months after the charge
He is 50/50 wether I have case until its properly tested in a higher court but his hearing is not till April
As I didn’t receive the Offer, he suggested put that in mitigation mention the rest and hope you get a fixed penalty as per originally fine, as there appears to be some grey areas re due process was followed
He said you could win if you went to court but he couldn’t guarantee that and it would probably be via a further appeal
I’ve been to court and had £900 costs I lost. Another I won and costs waived that was referred to a higher court

It is tempting to have my day in court mellow.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 14:52
Post #64


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,926
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (stewpots @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 14:00) *
Just spoke to a lawyer
There taking a test case to the high court. The only difference was the Single Justice Procedure Notice was served two months after the charge
He is 50/50 wether I have case until its properly tested in a higher court but his hearing is not till April
As I didn’t receive the Offer, he suggested put that in mitigation mention the rest and hope you get a fixed penalty as per originally fine, as there appears to be some grey areas re due process was followed
He said you could win if you went to court but he couldn’t guarantee that and it would probably be via a further appeal
I’ve been to court and had £900 costs I lost. Another I won and costs waived that was referred to a higher court

It is tempting to have my day in court mellow.gif

He's certainly right about one thing, the case would almost certainly end up in a higher court. If a non-court outcome such as a course or fixed penalty were in play then I'd strongly recommend you take that; however as those options are off the table, and if the costs are not an issue for you, you might as well see if he can take on your case.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stewpots
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 16:29
Post #65


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Member No.: 66,198



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 14:52) *
He's certainly right about one thing, the case would almost certainly end up in a higher court. If a non-court outcome such as a course or fixed penalty were in play then I'd strongly recommend you take that; however as those options are off the table, and if the costs are not an issue for you, you might as well see if he can take on your case.


I think this is a area that hasn't been fully tested

Ill up date the forum when I get more clarity , ie I have asked for a barrister to review my papers

Barrister comments (before review)

If that is what was said then that advice is incorrect. The date of issue of both the written charge and SJPN is vital. That’s actually made very clear in the legislation and the JCS advice sent to all courts. The service date is less important.

This post has been edited by stewpots: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 16:29
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stewpots
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 13:50
Post #66


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Member No.: 66,198



Sorry mods cant seem to find my previous post but please link if you can.

My court case is pending (28 June) and my view (and a barristers) is that the SJPC was issued out of time.
Can I ask pre trial ie now via email to their solicitor how many SJPC has the force issued after 6 months and 1 day in the last year ? and how many before.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
StuartBu
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 13:56
Post #67


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,153
Joined: 1 Jan 2013
From: Glasgow
Member No.: 59,097



QUOTE (stewpots @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:50) *
Sorry mods cant seem to find my previous post but please link if you can.

My court case is pending (28 June) and my view (and a barristers) is that the SJPC was issued out of time.
Can I ask pre trial ie now via email to their solicitor how many SJPC has the force issued after 6 months and 1 day in the last year ? and how many before.

Just click your name on the left and follow the choices ( topics or posts) in the drop down menu
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 13:57
Post #68


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,094
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



Here.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
peterguk
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:11
Post #69


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,938
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



QUOTE (stewpots @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:50) *
Can I ask pre trial ie now via email to their solicitor how many SJPC has the force issued after 6 months and 1 day in the last year ? and how many before.


What does that question have to do with the validfity of your SJPN and your case? How does the answer affect your case?


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:15
Post #70


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,094
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (stewpots @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:50) *
Can I ask pre trial ie now via email to their solicitor how many SJPC has the force issued after 6 months and 1 day in the last year ? and how many before.

You could ask or put in a Freedom of Information Request...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NewJudge
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:42
Post #71


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,562
Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Member No.: 23,623



QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:15) *
QUOTE (stewpots @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:50) *
Can I ask pre trial ie now via email to their solicitor how many SJPC has the force issued after 6 months and 1 day in the last year ? and how many before.

You could ask or put in a Freedom of Information Request...

But I do not believe that will help you one jot. The issue you are raising is about your SJPN and written charge, not anybody else's. They could have issued 10,000 in the same timescales as your one but that would not influence the validity or otherwise of yours.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:47
Post #72


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,094
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



Yes, I was wondering the reason. Only the material facts to this case really matter.

Even if the force are systematically issuing them 'out of time' doesn't mean this one was.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stewpots
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 16:04
Post #73


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Member No.: 66,198



QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 16:42) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:15) *
QUOTE (stewpots @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:50) *
Can I ask pre trial ie now via email to their solicitor how many SJPC has the force issued after 6 months and 1 day in the last year ? and how many before.

You could ask or put in a Freedom of Information Request...

But I do not believe that will help you one jot. The issue you are raising is about your SJPN and written charge, not anybody else's. They could have issued 10,000 in the same timescales as your one but that would not influence the validity or otherwise of yours.


Surely if they issues 9999 in time ie with 6 months and a day and only 1 ie mine out of time this would be considered

if they issue 500 in time and 500 out of time it shows guidelines not being followed

why is not relevant ?

Ill ask

Of course I ack we haven't established it is 'out of time'

This post has been edited by stewpots: Thu, 24 May 2018 - 16:05
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
peterguk
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 16:08
Post #74


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,938
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



QUOTE (stewpots @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 17:04) *
why is not relevant ?


Because the events of any other case obviously have nothing to do with yours.

Either yours was good service or not. That's all that matters, not what happened to anyone elses.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Thu, 24 May 2018 - 16:08


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 16:10
Post #75


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39,709
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



Because it’s totally irrelevant, yours was either issued in time or it was not, unless you believe it’s been cheated with a date that is not real (in which case the other data would be no more reliable), you don’t have a balance of probablilities approach here but black and white.

If yours was the only one of a million in time, you are still guilty (all other facets assumed proven).


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
StuartBu
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 00:03
Post #76


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,153
Joined: 1 Jan 2013
From: Glasgow
Member No.: 59,097



QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:57) *


Folk will never learn if you spoon feed them - thats why I didnt post the link .
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ford poplar
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 01:46
Post #77


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,743
Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Member No.: 24,962



From today, will GDPR make it easier/harder to view electronically-stored evidence?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 06:02
Post #78


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39,709
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



Have no effect at all as evidence for a criminal investigation is exempt.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
andy_foster
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 06:21
Post #79


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 20,354
Joined: 9 Sep 2004
From: Reading
Member No.: 1,624



QUOTE (stewpots @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:50) *
My court case is pending (28 June) and my view (and a barristers) is that the SJPC was issued out of time.
Can I ask pre trial ie now via email to their solicitor how many SJPC has the force issued after 6 months and 1 day in the last year ? and how many before.


You (or your barrister) put the prosecution to proof that it was issued in time (or whatever other requirements they might not have complied with - or even might have complied with but might not prove) and it is up to them to prove that they have complied with such requirements.


--------------------
Andy

Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 06:22
Post #80


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,094
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (ford poplar @ Fri, 25 May 2018 - 02:46) *
From today, will GDPR make it easier/harder to view electronically-stored evidence?

In criminal matters no change and in fact no change in general either! They can no longer charge the £10 fee though which is handy but wasn’t prohibitive anyway.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

5 Pages V  « < 2 3 4 5 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 19th October 2018 - 18:48
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.