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No conditional Offer
stewpots
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 12:04
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I have just got a NIP from a 'mobile unit'

It states if you wish to contest it evidence etc will be produced in magistrates court

Don't i have the right to see the evidence before the magistrates

I dont deny i was driving in the area but i refuse to believe i was doing 86mph in rush hour traffic on A34 its not physically possible
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post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 12:04
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southpaw82
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 12:07
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You have no right to see the evidence now, though if you ask to see it they might show you. You only have a right to see it once you're headed to court.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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stewpots
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 12:12
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 13:07) *
You have no right to see the evidence now, though if you ask to see it they might show you. You only have a right to see it once you're headed to court.


I can see it after the summons but before court I assume ?
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Jlc
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 12:39
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If you know you were exceeding 70mph take the 3 point £100 fixed penalty. That speed qualifies.

Taking it to court will be expensive.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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stewpots
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 12:50
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 13:39) *
If you know you were exceeding 70mph take the 3 point £100 fixed penalty. That speed qualifies.

Taking it to court will be expensive.


In the old days you could see all evidence before court, i assume the rule of law hasn't changed.
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Logician
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 13:04
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Yes, you can see it before going to court but not necessarily before deciding whether to accept a fixed penalty. However the important point to grasp is that your precise speed is not important in the context of fixed penalties, it will be the same fixed penalty whatever speed you were doing up to 95mph, and any higher speed would see the matter going to court. If you accept you were speeding, then accepting the fixed penalty is the way to go.


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cp8759
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 13:08
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QUOTE (stewpots @ Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 13:12) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 13:07) *
You have no right to see the evidence now, though if you ask to see it they might show you. You only have a right to see it once you're headed to court.


I can see it after the summons but before court I assume ?


Yes you can, once you get the summons you write to the prosecution and ask them for the initial details of the prosecution case as required by Part 8 of the Criminal Procedure Rules (http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/2015/crim-proc-rules-2015-part-08.pdf)
For a traffic matter this will normally be at the very least


"a summary of the circumstances of the offence"

and

"any written witness statement or exhibit that the prosecutor then has available and considers material to plea, or to the allocation of the case for trial, or to sentence,"

If they then don't provide the information, at the hearing you can ask the court for an adjournment so that the prosecutor can supply the information and you can have time to consider it and seek legal advice. Most importantly, you should ask the court to delay taking a plea until after you have received the evidence.
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NewJudge
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 13:11
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You can ask for “photographs to assist with the identification of the driver” (if you have not already provided the driver's details). There is no obligation for them to be provided but most areas usually do so. Do not, at this stage, ask for “evidence” as you are not entitled to it but in any case it is doubtful that it will help you very much.

Any evidence you are provided with will only be supplied when you have rejected any offers of a Speed Awareness course (which your speed just qualifies for provided you have not done one in the last three years) or a Fixed Penalty (£100 and 3 points). When you get it you will find it does not help you much with your plea decision. It will probably be a statement from the operator that says something along the lines that the device is approved by the Home Office, was calibrated as required and was operated in the correct manner. If you plead not guilty the onus will shift to you to disprove one or other of those facts to such a degree that the speed measured was likely to be more than 16mph (18%) out. (Remember the charge is exceeding the seed limit, not travelling at 86mph).

If you are not confident you can do that you should accept the course or the fixed penalty because a visit to court will be an expensive day out. Whatever you do, remember to return the request for driver’s details within 28 days. Fail to do so and you commit a separate offence which carries six points, a hefty fine and insurance grief for a number of years.
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madeirawine
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 18:49
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 14:08) *
QUOTE (stewpots @ Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 13:12) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 13:07) *
You have no right to see the evidence now, though if you ask to see it they might show you. You only have a right to see it once you're headed to court.


I can see it after the summons but before court I assume ?


Yes you can, once you get the summons you write to the prosecution and ask them for the initial details of the prosecution case as required by Part 8 of the Criminal Procedure Rules (http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/2015/crim-proc-rules-2015-part-08.pdf)
For a traffic matter this will normally be at the very least


"a summary of the circumstances of the offence"

and

"any written witness statement or exhibit that the prosecutor then has available and considers material to plea, or to the allocation of the case for trial, or to sentence,"

If they then don't provide the information, at the hearing you can ask the court for an adjournment so that the prosecutor can supply the information and you can have time to consider it and seek legal advice. Most importantly, you should ask the court to delay taking a plea until after you have received the evidence.

If they haven't served the evidence 7 days before the hearing and you turn up in court with no evidence served upon you suggest you have no case to answer. Don't ask for an adjournment to let the prosecutor serve upon you what they should have before you got there.
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Logician
post Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 19:43
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QUOTE (madeirawine @ Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 19:49) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 14:08) *
QUOTE (stewpots @ Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 13:12) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 19 Aug 2017 - 13:07) *
You have no right to see the evidence now, though if you ask to see it they might show you. You only have a right to see it once you're headed to court.


I can see it after the summons but before court I assume ?


Yes you can, once you get the summons you write to the prosecution and ask them for the initial details of the prosecution case as required by Part 8 of the Criminal Procedure Rules (http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/2015/crim-proc-rules-2015-part-08.pdf)
For a traffic matter this will normally be at the very least


"a summary of the circumstances of the offence"

and

"any written witness statement or exhibit that the prosecutor then has available and considers material to plea, or to the allocation of the case for trial, or to sentence,"




If they then don't provide the information, at the hearing you can ask the court for an adjournment so that the prosecutor can supply the information and you can have time to consider it and seek legal advice. Most importantly, you should ask the court to delay taking a plea until after you have received the evidence.

If they haven't served the evidence 7 days before the hearing and you turn up in court with no evidence served upon you suggest you have no case to answer. Don't ask for an adjournment to let the prosecutor serve upon you what they should have before you got there.


Nice theory, in practice the prosecutor will hand over the evidence in court and suggest that it is so straightforward in nature that there will no disadvantage to the defendant if the case is put back in the list to let him absorb it, and it can then proceed.


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stewpots
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 19:00
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I returned NIP ack I was the driver etc and assumed id get a conditional offer but its been 3 months and i have not heard anything. How long do they get ?

I now have another speeding offence which i want to contest but how long should it take re first ? The first was mobile van.

This post has been edited by stewpots: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 19:16
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NewJudge
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 19:32
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If they are taking the matter to court they have six months to begin proceedings (and often take nearly all of that).

On what basis are you thinking of challenging this latest allegation?
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stewpots
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 19:41
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 19:32) *
If they are taking the matter to court they have six months to begin proceedings (and often take nearly all of that).

On what basis are you thinking of challenging this latest allegation?


Why court ? I filled the NIP in saying i was the driver etc So if i dont get a conditional offer back in 6 months I can rest easy ?

The latest i was no where near area at time. Its 100 miles away and 2am in morning

No where to put that on NIP either car stolen or someone has my number plate .

I guess that will have to go to court and we can see pic

I assume i put not driver and write unknown who driver is .
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Logician
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 19:45
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Suggest that the number plate may have been misread and they should check it, that is the most common reason for 'off the wall' NIPs. You would surely know if your car had been stolen, and cloning is actually uncommon.


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peterguk
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 20:25
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QUOTE (stewpots @ Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 19:41) *
So if i dont get a conditional offer back in 6 months I can rest easy ?


Not quite. If they don't send a CoFP or commence proceedings in 6 months you can rest easy.

Why not call them and ask?


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Jlc
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 20:58
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If the prevailing limit was 60mph then it was too fast for a fixed penalty?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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stewpots
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 18:27
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I was caught speeding 1O August 2017. I sent back the NIP but heard nothing

Now just got a letter saying as not received payment/driving licence will be referred to the court

Its says "conditional offer form recently sent" ?? Surely it would have been sent in september ??

should i just write back and say i didn't get one ?

I dont want extra costs of court . what if they forgot to send it and this is automated re 6 month rule etc ??
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southpaw82
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 18:31
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You’re not going to get a CoFP now (unless you’re a senior Labour politician). You can advise the court of the guidance given in the sentencing guidelines that you ought to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level if a fixed penalty wasn’t offered for reasons unconnected to the offence. I take it the speed was eligible for a fixed penalty?


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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stewpots
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 18:36
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 18:31) *
You’re not going to get a CoFP now (unless you’re a senior Labour politician). You can advise the court of the guidance given in the sentencing guidelines that you ought to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level if a fixed penalty wasn’t offered for reasons unconnected to the offence. I take it the speed was eligible for a fixed penalty?


it was 86 in 70 but i dont want to pay court costs.

ill ask for a copy of their offer

I have just seen single justice now no longer court with 3 magistrates

This post has been edited by stewpots: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 18:42
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mdann52
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 18:45
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Just to check, how many points do you have, and how long have you held your licence?
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