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Bus Gate PCN, Hotspur St, Glasgow. Honest mistake, 90% sure officer didn't see me drive through the gate
Akira
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:08
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There's a bus gate that's literally just a speed bump to limit traffic probably due to the school nearby. It was Sunday when I went through it as I thought it was during school hours only, but the officer took great pleasure in informing me it was "active 24/7 365 days a year". After speaking to some people, I've been told they've been camping out there since Christmas stopping people, probably to top up their coffers.

I've included a sketch of the layout, pink box is the bus gate. The cops (blue box) pulled up to the junction roughly where my car was (grey box) and immediately pointed me to stop. I'm 90% certain they didn't actually see me go through that bus gate and made an assumption.

I've attached the PCN the officer gave me. I converted my UK driving licence to a European one when I was living there a while ago and never converted it back so the driver number is blank. I know ignorance is not a valid defence but it was an honest mistake. Is there any way I can get out of this or do I just have to pay up?




This post has been edited by Akira: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:13
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post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:08
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Akira
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 15:42
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I didn't know the difference between a FPN and a PCN as this is the first ticket I've ever received in 12 years of driving. They've been camping out there since Christmas and I just happened to go through it when they turned up for the start of their afternoon camp. I know that blue sign is there going towards Maryhill Road, can't recall if there's one facing the other direction. It was missing for a while but I imagine the cops would have replaced it by now.

Again, I never said I was going to challenge this in court, although technically l think I'd have a good chance as perjury applies to both sides. I wouldn't need to make a statement as the burden of proof lays with the prosecution. The cop would have to admit he didn't see me go through the gate as it is not physically possible to do so until he reached the junction, by which point I was already well clear of the gate and about to turn into said junction (I checked when I went past yesterday). I'm guessing he was over eager to meet his quota for the day and immediately assumed I went through the gate due to the direction my vehicle was travelling in, which would have been the same direction if I came out one of the parking spots.

But not worth the hassle for £50, if it was a few £100, I'd maybe consider it. I just wanted to know if something easier could be done, which doesn't seem to be the case so I've paid the fine. Went to Tesco yesterday and there were 3 cars pulled over getting fines. £50 a fine, average 4 or 5 every day at least for the last 40+ days. Either way, someone is doing well in giving their coffer a post Christmas bump.

Thanks for the help anyway folks, even if it wasn't the outcome I had hoped for.

This post has been edited by Akira: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 15:46
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KH_
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 17:34
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Back in the late 80's I was driving past Elephant and Castle and I leaned over to the passenger seat to look up the bus lane to see how long the queue was.
Little bit further up, pulled in by two police on foot who gave me a ticket for driving in a bus lane.

Pointed out that I didn't drive in a bus lane and they reasoned that I would have done if I hadn't seen them standing there (apparently they were there to catch people in the bus lane)
Still rankles me to this day that I had to pay that...
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cp8759
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:21
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QUOTE (Akira @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 15:42) *
I'm guessing he was over eager to meet his quota for the day and immediately assumed I went through the gate due to the direction my vehicle was travelling in, which would have been the same direction if I came out one of the parking spots.

What quota?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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StuartBu
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:26
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QUOTE (Akira @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 15:42) *
I didn't know the difference between a FPN and a PCN as this is the first ticket I've ever received in 12 years of driving. They've been camping out there since Christmas and I just happened to go through it when they turned up for the start of their afternoon camp. I know that blue sign is there going towards Maryhill Road, can't recall if there's one facing the other direction. It was missing for a while but I imagine the cops would have replaced it by now.

Again, I never said I was going to challenge this in court, although technically l think I'd have a good chance as perjury applies to both sides. I wouldn't need to make a statement as the burden of proof lays with the prosecution. The cop would have to admit he didn't see me go through the gate as it is not physically possible to do so until he reached the junction, by which point I was already well clear of the gate and about to turn into said junction (I checked when I went past yesterday). I'm guessing he was over eager to meet his quota for the day and immediately assumed I went through the gate due to the direction my vehicle was travelling in, which would have been the same direction if I came out one of the parking spots.

But not worth the hassle for £50, if it was a few £100, I'd maybe consider it. I just wanted to know if something easier could be done, which doesn't seem to be the case so I've paid the fine. Went to Tesco yesterday and there were 3 cars pulled over getting fines. £50 a fine, average 4 or 5 every day at least for the last 40+ days. Either way, someone is doing well in giving their coffer a post Christmas bump.

Thanks for the help anyway folks, even if it wasn't the outcome I had hoped for.


I'm sure I posted a reply to this earlier but it's gone .What I said was that paying it was probably the easiest way out ( even though it grates) and it's not a fine ..It's a FP :-)
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DancingDad
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:37
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:21) *
QUOTE (Akira @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 15:42) *
I'm guessing he was over eager to meet his quota for the day and immediately assumed I went through the gate due to the direction my vehicle was travelling in, which would have been the same direction if I came out one of the parking spots.

What quota?


Cough biggrin.gif

Back before decriminalised came in, I worked on the door of a nightclub, in the suburbs but on a main road.
About once a month, Old Bill would turn up in force between 12 and 1 in the morning and ticket every car parked on the double yellow lines that many of the punters reckoned were purely decorative.
Pro-active would have seen them there every night, bit low on collars towards the end of the month, that is quota.

In this case, from what OP says, Old Bill know there is a bus gate that drivers routinely ignore.
Parking up and stopping them is like shooting fish in a barrel
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cp8759
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:26
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:37) *
In this case, from what OP says, Old Bill know there is a bus gate that drivers routinely ignore.
Parking up and stopping them is like shooting fish in a barrel

I repeat, what quota? The fact that an officer might go and sit there and write a few tickets when there's nothing else going on does not mean they have a quota, I am yet to see or even hear of any evidence that Police Scotland give their officers a "quota" of fixed penalties to issue.


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StuartBu
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 00:14
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:26) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:37) *
In this case, from what OP says, Old Bill know there is a bus gate that drivers routinely ignore.
Parking up and stopping them is like shooting fish in a barrel

I repeat, what quota? The fact that an officer might go and sit there and write a few tickets when there's nothing else going on does not mean they have a quota, I am yet to see or even hear of any evidence that Police Scotland give their officers a "quota" of fixed penalties to issue.


OK OK ...there might not be ( although I'd not be surprised if there was) anything laid down to say Cops must reach a "quota" or a "target" but you can bet your boots that if Cops see an opportunity to issue easy FP's they'll grab it with both hands because they probably think it makes them look good in the eyes of Sergeants or Inspectors .
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cp8759
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 00:49
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 00:14) *
OK OK ...there might not be ( although I'd not be surprised if there was) anything laid down to say Cops must reach a "quota" or a "target" but you can bet your boots that if Cops see an opportunity to issue easy FP's they'll grab it with both hands because they probably think it makes them look good in the eyes of Sergeants or Inspectors .

Unless they're a probationer on their first week, I very much doubt they would have such a mindset, and I doubt even more that any sergeants or inspectors will be impressed no matter who the issuing officer is. The sergeant is far more likely to be pleased with careless / dangerous / drunk / drug driving / no insurance / no licence detections. I suspect if any PC walks into the station at the end of their shift with 100 FPNs for trivial offences, the sergeant will be far from impressed and is likely to question why they haven't done any more substantive work.


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StuartBu
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 01:02
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 00:49) *
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 00:14) *
OK OK ...there might not be ( although I'd not be surprised if there was) anything laid down to say Cops must reach a "quota" or a "target" but you can bet your boots that if Cops see an opportunity to issue easy FP's they'll grab it with both hands because they probably think it makes them look good in the eyes of Sergeants or Inspectors .

Unless they're a probationer on their first week, I very much doubt they would have such a mindset, and I doubt even more that any sergeants or inspectors will be impressed no matter who the issuing officer is. The sergeant is far more likely to be pleased with careless / dangerous / drunk / drug driving / no insurance / no licence detections. I suspect if any PC walks into the station at the end of their shift with 100 FPNs for trivial offences, the sergeant will be far from impressed and is likely to question why they haven't done any more substantive work.


Considering what else is going on with Police Scotland at present .who knows what other practices are being undertaken . Your faith in PS is touching !!!!!
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Akira
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 09:44
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Considering your faith in the police, I'll assume you've not had much dealings with them in the past. My girlfriend does police advocacy work for victims of domestic abuse and sexual violence and I can say from her experiences that the police have little interest in investigating things properly. I got rear ended on cathedral street last year around Christmas and the guy done a runner. Cctv in clear view, his car all smashed up at the front and the police never found him. Doubt they spent more than 5 minutes looking at Cctv footage before they gave up. Probably too busy processing FPNs.

If the officers really wanted to tackle proper crime, all they'd have to do is camp out at the wyndford flats just round the corner from that bus gate. They'd catch drug dealers, young teams causing trouble, drunken fights, etc that goes on most nights round there. But that's a lot more hassle than just writing a bunch of FPNs.

Plus, the FPNs probably get lumped in one pot and used as stats to show the police being "tough" on driving offences over the holiday period, such as drink driving.

This post has been edited by Akira: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 09:52
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peterguk
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 10:12
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Flame pit territory.

Bottom line OP got caught, didn't like it but has paid up.


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cp8759
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 10:12
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QUOTE (Akira @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 09:44) *
Considering your faith in the police, I'll assume you've not had much dealings with them in the past.

Oh how wrong you are.

QUOTE (Akira @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 09:44) *
My girlfriend does police advocacy work for victims of domestic abuse and sexual violence and I can say from her experiences that the police have little interest in investigating things properly. I got rear ended on cathedral street last year around Christmas and the guy done a runner. Cctv in clear view, his car all smashed up at the front and the police never found him. Doubt they spent more than 5 minutes looking at Cctv footage before they gave up. Probably too busy processing FPNs.

I can't really comment on incidents I know nothing about, but in most cases FPNs get processed by police staff rather than warranted officers.

QUOTE (Akira @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 09:44) *
If the officers really wanted to tackle proper crime, all they'd have to do is camp out at the wyndford flats just round the corner from that bus gate. They'd catch drug dealers, young teams causing trouble, drunken fights, etc that goes on most nights round there. But that's a lot more hassle than just writing a bunch of FPNs.

How many times have you reported this? Let's assume you've made numerous reports through 101. Have you then raised a formal complaint when no action was taken? Have you spoken to the local councillor / MP? Have you written to the local paper?

QUOTE (Akira @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 09:44) *
Plus, the FPNs probably get lumped in one pot and used as stats to show the police being "tough" on driving offences over the holiday period, such as drink driving.

Probably? So you have no idea. Why don't you make a FOI request and find out?


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Akira
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 11:47
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I'd say I have enough experience, professionally and personally, to make a good educated guess. You report something at the Wyndford? You're lucky if the police show up the same day. A report of domestic violence got called in and it took the police 4 hours to get there, needless to say they missed everything and nothing got done. In my experience, the Wyndford is an area where bad **** goes down frequently and the police actively avoid. Doesn't help that social housing for vulnerable people and housing for ex offenders are lumped side by side.

A complaint about the police? You'd have better luck getting a leopard to change it's spots. You think that's never been tried? They watch out for their own and if you need to work with them as part of your job, you may as well hand your resignation in. Try making a complaint and then see how you're treated. 13 months later, I'm still waiting for my call about the CCTV footage over my hit and run that was supposed to happen within 24 to 48 hours. Go into the station, get told to call 101. Call 101, get passed from pillar to post, then get told to go to a police station. I gave them exact time and place and CCTV locations in view of the accident. No officer could check the footage but you can have 2 camped at a bus gate for over a month, 7 days a week.

I'm glad your personal experience with the police allows you this wonderful glowing opinion of them. Wouldn't surprise me if you were a copper yourself or know one at the very least. I will remain sceptical until I actually see some change in either my professional or personal dealings with them but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Anyhow, I asked for help, I got my answer. Fine paid, bus gates are safe once again. Bigger crime continues un-investigated. All is right with the world. I don't see the need to spend anymore time on this so I'm out. Thanks to those that offered advice.

Peace!
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Fredd
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 12:16
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This thread seems to be well past it's use-by date now, so it's closed. Please feel free to start a thread in the Flame Pit if anyone wants to continue moaning about discussing ho unfair life is policing priorities.


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