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Bus Gate PCN, Hotspur St, Glasgow. Honest mistake, 90% sure officer didn't see me drive through the gate
Akira
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:08
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There's a bus gate that's literally just a speed bump to limit traffic probably due to the school nearby. It was Sunday when I went through it as I thought it was during school hours only, but the officer took great pleasure in informing me it was "active 24/7 365 days a year". After speaking to some people, I've been told they've been camping out there since Christmas stopping people, probably to top up their coffers.

I've included a sketch of the layout, pink box is the bus gate. The cops (blue box) pulled up to the junction roughly where my car was (grey box) and immediately pointed me to stop. I'm 90% certain they didn't actually see me go through that bus gate and made an assumption.

I've attached the PCN the officer gave me. I converted my UK driving licence to a European one when I was living there a while ago and never converted it back so the driver number is blank. I know ignorance is not a valid defence but it was an honest mistake. Is there any way I can get out of this or do I just have to pay up?




This post has been edited by Akira: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:13
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post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:08
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stamfordman
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:17
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I don't think you can appeal a fixed penalty notice and you'd have to challenge it in court, which is not advisable. What does the back say?

Strange that there is no camera on this one:

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.8840142,-4....3312!8i6656

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:22
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DancingDad
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:28
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Pay it quick.
Signs are clear, cops will state they saw you.
Only way to seriously challenge is to let it go to court where it is a criminal offence and being found guilty will cost far more.
I can't see you not being found guilty.
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StuartBu
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:28
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:17) *
I don't think you can appeal a fixed penalty notice and you'd have to challenge it in court, which is not advisable. What does the back say?

Strange that there is no camera on this one:


And here's me thinking it was only Glasgow City Council that bothered with Bus Lane contraventions .....I did see a post somewhere that said this was a solitary Glasgow Bus Lane that Taxis weren't
allowed to use but dunno if that is still the case .
Here is a GSV of it .
https://goo.gl/maps/1y627qMKPSF2

Very strange arrangement ..Same signs no matter which way you approach it from ..what is the point of that?

This post has been edited by StuartBu: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:30
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Akira
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:05
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Those yellow signs seen on GSV aren't there anymore. Haven't been for ages. The back is just various ways of paying it (post, phone, website, etc). Surely the cops would need a video or something or it's just my word against theirs?

I don't think it's physically possible for them to have seen me go though it considering I was already through the gate before they approached the junction. I was about to turn in when they pulled up. I could have come out of the parking spots before the gate for all they know
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DancingDad
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:22
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Are the two blue circle signs still there?
Do they give any time?

If answer is yes and no, pay.
Else be prepared to argue your case in magistrates court.

If you want to do that, I suggest that you hit the report button and ask a mod to move to the criminal section of the forum where the specialists in that area hang out.
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DJ Lexy
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:26
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:28) *
Very strange arrangement ..Same signs no matter which way you approach it from ..what is the point of that?


To stop people using it as a shortcut to avoid Queen Margaret Drive, presumably. That section of road gets really busy.
QUOTE (Akira @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:05) *
Surely the cops would need a video or something or it's just my word against theirs?

I don't think it's physically possible for them to have seen me go though it considering I was already through the gate before they approached the junction. I was about to turn in when they pulled up. I could have come out of the parking spots before the gate for all they know


If a police officer says you were on the phone or driving through a bus gate, their word is all that's needed to take you to court. In certain circumstances, they don't even need a measurement to do you for speeding on a motorway.

Looking at the location, they could've seen you through the fence. They probably knew that gate was there and were looking out as they approached the junction.

I don't think this one is worth fighting. If you go to court and lose, it could cost you a lot of money. You won't get points though, since it's a non-endorsable penalty.

This post has been edited by DJ Lexy: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:44
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stamfordman
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:43
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QUOTE (DJ Lexy @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:26) *
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:28) *
Very strange arrangement ..Same signs no matter which way you approach it from ..what is the point of that?

To stop people using it as a shortcut to avoid Queen Margaret Drive, presumably. That section of road gets really busy.


OP has found one of the few bus gates not covered by CCTV it seems.
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Neil B
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:56
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:43) *
OP has found one of the few bus gates not covered by CCTV it seems.

It might be (jnless you have info it isn't?) and he might get a PCN as well.
Would have to challenge under 'police dealing'

Foolish to argue the FPN. As others, pay.

QUOTE (Akira @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:08) *
I went through it

QUOTE (Akira @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:05) *
I don't think it's physically possible for them to have seen me go though it considering I was already through the gate before they approached the junction. I was about to turn in when they pulled up. I could have come out of the parking spots before the gate for all they know

You propose to go to Court?
Under oath, your defence is what exactly?

Good luck with that! laugh.gif


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Akira
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 20:53
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The view of the gate is blocked through the fence, the more I think about it, the more certain I'm sure they couldn't have seen me. There's no public cctv on that road. People go through it to cut out half the traffic of Maryhill Road and vice versa I think.

I just wanted to know if anything could be done cause it was an honest mistake, never said I'd take it to court. Thought the onus would have been on the police to provide evidence to corroborate their claim, innocent until proven guilty and all that.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 21:16
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QUOTE (Akira @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:08) *
probably to top up their coffers.

They won’t be doing it very well as the police get noth8ng from the fixed penalty or fine.


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cp8759
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 22:16
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QUOTE (Akira @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:05) *
Those yellow signs seen on GSV aren't there anymore. Haven't been for ages. The back is just various ways of paying it (post, phone, website, etc). Surely the cops would need a video or something or it's just my word against theirs?

I don't think it's physically possible for them to have seen me go though it considering I was already through the gate before they approached the junction. I was about to turn in when they pulled up. I could have come out of the parking spots before the gate for all they know

The signs are clear, even without the yellow signs. I'm not sure any careful and competent driver could be in any doubt as to what they mean (Of course ignorance of the meaning of the signs is no defence).

This is a criminal matter, you cannot lie in court as that would be perjury. You appear to accept that you did in fact go through the bus gate, so your options in court would be to either decline to give evidence (in which case your will be convicted based on the officer's evidence), or admit that you went through the bus gate (in which case you will also be found guilty). A fixed penalty notice allows you to resolve the matter while avoiding a criminal conviction, I would strongly recommend you accept the FPN.


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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Steve_999
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 22:36
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QUOTE (Akira @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:08) *
. . . . . After speaking to some people, I've been told they've been camping out there since Christmas stopping people, probably to top up their coffers.

. . . . .



QUOTE (Akira @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 19:05) *
. . . . . I could have come out of the parking spots before the gate for all they know
. . . . .



So, assuming they were "camped out" there, they would have checked what, if any, cars were parked and seen that you weren't.

I would assume they have all bases covered.
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andy_foster
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 23:14
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QUOTE (Akira @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:08) *
I've attached the PCN the officer gave me.


That's not a PCN.


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Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 23:20
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For the avoidance of doubt for the OP, the 99.9% of other bus lane posts saying "fight it" are for councils who are generally staffed by toothless halfwits.

This one is issued by the police and like most trivial police FPNs it's best just to pay it because the cost will be much less than the hassle you will get in the unlikely event you were found not guilty in magistrates court. And, seeing as by your own admission you did drive through it and so when they ask in court "Did you drive through it?" you will have to answer "Yes", there is basically no chance.

Lesson learnt I am afraid. Back in the day bus lane tickets were used by some traffic police near me for "driving like a nob, but not enough to warrant points on licence" offence. I know because I got one!

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 23:22


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stamfordman
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 23:39
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 23:20) *
Back in the day bus lane tickets were used by some traffic police near me for "driving like a nob, but not enough to warrant points on licence" offence. I know because I got one!


I was stopped once in bus lane by a policeman who asked me (twice): "Are you a bus, sir?"

Good old days.
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cp8759
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 00:20
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 23:39) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 23:20) *
Back in the day bus lane tickets were used by some traffic police near me for "driving like a nob, but not enough to warrant points on licence" offence. I know because I got one!


I was stopped once in bus lane by a policeman who asked me (twice): "Are you a bus, sir?"

You should have replied "Well if I say yes you're going to arrest me under section 136 of the Mental Health Act!"


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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The Slithy Tove
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 10:40
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 22:16) *
The signs are clear, even without the yellow signs

As a matter of interest, why do they use the blue signs rather than No Entry signs with an addition sign stating the exception for buses, etc.? A No Entry sign is far more "in your face", and likely to make people think twice about going through more than the blue signs. Is it down to the kind of TRO needed to put such a restriction in place?
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 10:46
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QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 10:40) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 22:16) *
The signs are clear, even without the yellow signs

As a matter of interest, why do they use the blue signs rather than No Entry signs with an addition sign stating the exception for buses, etc.? A No Entry sign is far more "in your face", and likely to make people think twice about going through more than the blue signs. Is it down to the kind of TRO needed to put such a restriction in place?


Not allowed to use no entry to sign a bus gate. If this was council not police there could be an argument that road markings are also mandatory but then it would only be risking £30 not hundreds
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DancingDad
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 11:15
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 10:46) *
QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 10:40) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 22:16) *
The signs are clear, even without the yellow signs

As a matter of interest, why do they use the blue signs rather than No Entry signs with an addition sign stating the exception for buses, etc.? A No Entry sign is far more "in your face", and likely to make people think twice about going through more than the blue signs. Is it down to the kind of TRO needed to put such a restriction in place?


Not allowed to use no entry to sign a bus gate. ..........


They seem to have changed that in TSRGD 2016.... associated plates to a No Entry now show as...."11. “Except” and “trams”, “buses”, “local buses”, “cycles”, “buses and cycles” or “local buses and cycles”; “and” may be varied to “&”. "
But the Blue Bus Circle is valid and that an alternative could be used will not effect outcome.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 11:16
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