PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

dvla fixed penalty notice, continuous insurance enforcement
powercut
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 16:39
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Member No.: 78,045



On sat 13/01/18 wife sold her car. V5 was filled in and sent off via recorded signed for delivery which can prove dvla received we also photocopied the signed dated v5 and have a copy of the receipt. On the 14/01/18 we cancelled the insurance as we no longer owned it. On the 19/01/18 we received fixed penalty notice for not having insurance on the car we no longer own. Filled in the appeal form. also i included a letter explaning what happed with photocopy of the signed dated v5. Copy of insurance certificate and copy of cancellation on the 14th and copy of the recipt of sale. To our amazment they refused to cancel the penalty yet we have done nothing wrong. They state only the achknowledgement from them dated before the penalty notice! What? That means your got to insure a car you dont own until they send you an acknowledgement? That could be weeks! And all in all both new and old keeper comfim transfer date is the 13th. Even dvla database says the 13/01/18. The new owner has his new v5 showing transfer date as the 13/01/18 he aldo has his insuance certificate showing the 13/01/18 so it was insureed and all provable
Any ideas on what to do. Tried ringing the enforment dept of dvla and the have the option af pay fine or pay fine. You cannot speak to a person.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 35)
Advertisement
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 16:39
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 16:16
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,999
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 09:44) *
Personally I'd be on the phone, email and if needs be letter, basically getting as high up the tree as I can and asking WTF.
As a minimum, I would be responding to their rejection letter with all information including a very clear statement that they are trying to fine you for not insuring a vehicle when their own records show that you were not the owner at the time.... list the dates, be clear.

I would do nothing, it seems to be the case form the OP's posts that he has committed no offence, so there's no point in engaging mindless drones. Either a decision maker will realise the matter should go no further, or it will be referred for prosecution and the prosecutions team will realise the matter should go no further. In the unlikely event that the matter ends up in court (Chances of which are vanishingly small if all the OP's correspondence is on file), the court would not convict the OP and the OP would have a strong case to make an application for a costs order against the DVLA under POA s. 19.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redivi
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 17:00
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,635
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Member No.: 96,238



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 07:03) *
I did raise that earlier, it’s incredibly fast, DVLA don’t update keeper details that fast so they’d be sending out hundreds while they are getting around to uodateing details.

I posted off a V5 for a change of address on Tuesday and received the new one today

They took a few days longer for our other car but that's never had a V5 so had to apply for the new document

Our new driving licences also took less than a week
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
powercut
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 17:00
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Member No.: 78,045



here is my 2nd appeal letter guys. could you please read through it to see if you think its ok

Dear Sir, Madam,

further to my letter and appeal dated the 20/01/18 I am now in receipt of your refusal to cancel the penalty notice for failure to insure dated 30/01/2018 ref no" insert reg". that is your claim is the vehicle was not insured by me on the 17/01/18. I did not own this vehicle on this date and DVLA has confirmed this.

The vehicle was sold on the 13/01/18 and the signed dated V5 was sent and received by DVLA. DVLA has confirmed this to me today and the new keeper confirms she has a new V5 stating 13/01/18

I believe the statement you make in your letter is misleading and false. You state you are liable for insurance and tax until such time as 1. you've notified DVLA AND 2. in receipt of a acknowledgement letter dated before the alleged offence. That is ridiculous as every vehicle transfer there is a gap in time between notifying DVLA and receiving a confirmation. This delay I might add is one that ONLY DVLA has power over and as you know can take weeks.
when you buy a new vehicle and sell the old one you fill out the V5 therefore fulfilling the 1st requirement as stated in you letter you also transfer you insurance to the new vehicle which means you immediately fall foul of your 2nd requirement that is you don't yet have and acknowledgement letter and old vehicle is not insured anymore.

as far as I'm concerned I have fully complied with the road traffic act 1988
and have included the relevant parts below.

road traffic act 1998 section 144b
(1) A person (“the registered keeper”) in whose name a vehicle which does not meet the insurance requirements is registered at any particular time (“ the relevant time ”) does not commit an offence under section 144A of this Act at that time if any of the following conditions are satisfied.

(4) The third condition is that the registered keeper—
(a) is not at the relevant time the person keeping the vehicle, and
(b) if previously he was the person keeping the vehicle, he has by the relevant time complied with any requirements under subsection (7)(a) below that he is required to have complied with by the relevant or any earlier time.

(7) Regulations may make provision—
(a) for the purposes of subsection (4)(b) and (5)© above, requiring a person in whose name a vehicle is registered to furnish such particulars and make such declarations as may be prescribed, and to do so at such times and in such manner as may be prescribed
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 17:46
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,344
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



Personally I would cut it down a lot, remember you are dealing with clerical staff who won't understand half of what you write and think the DVLA is infallible and can make up their own laws anyway.

I had a similar head banging contest with them about SORN twice. In the end the letters that got them to drop it was along the lines of

"Dear DVLA,

Thank you for your recent letter.

I am confident I have complied with all relevant laws and so politely ask you to confirm you are dropping the case.

If not, I expect the next letter to inform me of court hearing details.

With love,

NML"

I think sending bullsh*t letters to you are cheap, actually sending it for legal action less so making them properly think about whether to progress.


--------------------
My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 21:56
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,999
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 17:46) *
I think sending bullsh*t letters to you are cheap, actually sending it for legal action less so making them properly think about whether to progress.

+1


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 11:40
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,169
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



As above

Too much waffle. If you state you have compleied with ... b7y doing .... you now require them to state precisely the legilsation you have not complied with, or to cease pursuing you.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nigelbb
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 17:04
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,204
Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,602



The OP was not the RK so committed no offence but in fact no offence occurred as the car was insured by the new owner.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
panther12
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 18:51
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 227
Joined: 2 Sep 2005
Member No.: 3,695



Just to throw a curve ball in this, Is the seller not the RK for the purpose of CIE until the V5c has been posted (or as in this case until the date of the recorded delivery receipt). The letter says no insurance on 17 Jan so will it boil down to when the docs were placed in the hands of the postal service?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 19:49
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,344
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



QUOTE (panther12 @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 18:51) *
Just to throw a curve ball in this, Is the seller not the RK for the purpose of CIE until the V5c has been posted (or as in this case until the date of the recorded delivery receipt). The letter says no insurance on 17 Jan so will it boil down to when the docs were placed in the hands of the postal service?

It's not a curve ball as there is no requirement to post off the V5C the exact second you sell the car, just that you send it "forthwith", i.e. without delay. Provided the OP did that and were no longer keeping the vehicle then they are protected by 144B.

If Parliament intended for there to be a hard limit this could have been included in legislation.


--------------------
My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
panther12
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 10:52
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 227
Joined: 2 Sep 2005
Member No.: 3,695



QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 19:49) *
QUOTE (panther12 @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 18:51) *
Just to throw a curve ball in this, Is the seller not the RK for the purpose of CIE until the V5c has been posted (or as in this case until the date of the recorded delivery receipt). The letter says no insurance on 17 Jan so will it boil down to when the docs were placed in the hands of the postal service?

It's not a curve ball as there is no requirement to post off the V5C the exact second you sell the car, just that you send it "forthwith", i.e. without delay. Provided the OP did that and were no longer keeping the vehicle then they are protected by 144B.

If Parliament intended for there to be a hard limit this could have been included in legislation.

Yes I agree but for the purpose of ICE there is requirement to have insurance on a vehicle and I can't see what section of 144b that would provide the exemption in the situation where the V5c is posted after the relevant time. If there is going to be a gap between cancelling insurance and notifying dvla of sale (either online or placing the docs in the post) a sorn should be made - which is cancelled when the new owner becomes RK.

QUOTE
(4)The third condition is that the registered keeper—
(a)is not at the relevant time the person keeping the vehicle, and
(b)if previously he was the person keeping the vehicle, he has by the relevant time complied with any requirements under subsection (7)(a) below that he is required to have complied with by the relevant or any earlier time.

(7)Regulations may make provision—
(a)for the purposes of subsection (4)(b) and (5)© above, requiring a person in whose name a vehicle is registered to furnish such particulars and make such declarations as may be prescribed, and to do so at such times and in such manner as may be prescribed,


If OP didn't post the docs until after the relevant time (17th) but the new owner took out insurance that covered the period, OP would still have a solid defence under 144A

QUOTE
“144A Offence of keeping vehicle which does not meet insurance requirements

(1)If a motor vehicle registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 does not meet the insurance requirements, the person in whose name the vehicle is registered is guilty of an offence.

(2)For the purposes of this section a vehicle meets the insurance requirements if—

(a)it is covered by a such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act, and

(b)either of the following conditions is satisfied.

(3)The first condition is that the policy or security, or the certificate of insurance or security which relates to it, identifies the vehicle by its registration mark as a vehicle which is covered by the policy or security.


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 14:48
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,377
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



QUOTE (panther12 @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 10:52) *
If OP didn't post the docs until after the relevant time (17th) but the new owner took out insurance that covered the period, OP would still have a solid defence under 144A


Apparently the new owner did have insurance, the OP wrote "The new owner has his new v5 showing transfer date as the 13/01/18 he aldo has his insuance certificate showing the 13/01/18 so it was insureed and all provable"

So perhaps the OP should now write again making that specific point and quoting the relevant section. The DVLA like to pretend that what counts is always their acknowledgement and need to be disabused.



--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
powercut
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 14:49
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Member No.: 78,045



you guys are great i will cut down my second letter accordingly. btw i now have a copy of the new keeper v5 which they very kindly photographed showing, you guessed it, aquired vehicle on 13/01/18
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nigelbb
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 15:21
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,204
Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,602



QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 14:48) *
QUOTE (panther12 @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 10:52) *
If OP didn't post the docs until after the relevant time (17th) but the new owner took out insurance that covered the period, OP would still have a solid defence under 144A


Apparently the new owner did have insurance, the OP wrote "The new owner has his new v5 showing transfer date as the 13/01/18 he aldo has his insuance certificate showing the 13/01/18 so it was insureed and all provable"

This is the point that I made earlier. The DVLA are claiming an offence that didn't actually occur as the car was continuously insured.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
powercut
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 13:57
Post #34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Member No.: 78,045



QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 15:21) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 14:48) *
QUOTE (panther12 @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 10:52) *
If OP didn't post the docs until after the relevant time (17th) but the new owner took out insurance that covered the period, OP would still have a solid defence under 144A


Apparently the new owner did have insurance, the OP wrote "The new owner has his new v5 showing transfer date as the 13/01/18 he aldo has his insuance certificate showing the 13/01/18 so it was insureed and all provable"

This is the point that I made earlier. The DVLA are claiming an offence that didn't actually occur as the car was continuously insured.


But whether the new keeper insured it or not. Im not clearly not liable under 144b its simply not my responsibility
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
powercut
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:12
Post #35


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Member No.: 78,045



Just noticed the letter says as well as being taken to court they can also use debt collection agents To recover the fixed penalty. My question is do those agemts have more powers than ordinary debt collection agents. Or is it a case of telling them go away i deny any debt. I seem to remember seeing tv program where cars where stopped at side of road and vehicles seized all with the help of the police
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:41
Post #36


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,999
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (powercut @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:12) *
Just noticed the letter says as well as being taken to court they can also use debt collection agents To recover the fixed penalty. My question is do those agemts have more powers than ordinary debt collection agents. Or is it a case of telling them go away i deny any debt. I seem to remember seeing tv program where cars where stopped at side of road and vehicles seized all with the help of the police

That program was showing the police help bailiffs collect PCN debts, the police have since discontinued the practice as it's not their job to help collect civil penalties.

The letter looks like an out of court settlement offer rather than a fixed penalty, so I'm not sure there's anything to enforce unless the DVLA take you to court first.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:45


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 16th August 2018 - 23:20
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.