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dvla fixed penalty notice, continuous insurance enforcement
powercut
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 16:39
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On sat 13/01/18 wife sold her car. V5 was filled in and sent off via recorded signed for delivery which can prove dvla received we also photocopied the signed dated v5 and have a copy of the receipt. On the 14/01/18 we cancelled the insurance as we no longer owned it. On the 19/01/18 we received fixed penalty notice for not having insurance on the car we no longer own. Filled in the appeal form. also i included a letter explaning what happed with photocopy of the signed dated v5. Copy of insurance certificate and copy of cancellation on the 14th and copy of the recipt of sale. To our amazment they refused to cancel the penalty yet we have done nothing wrong. They state only the achknowledgement from them dated before the penalty notice! What? That means your got to insure a car you dont own until they send you an acknowledgement? That could be weeks! And all in all both new and old keeper comfim transfer date is the 13th. Even dvla database says the 13/01/18. The new owner has his new v5 showing transfer date as the 13/01/18 he aldo has his insuance certificate showing the 13/01/18 so it was insureed and all provable
Any ideas on what to do. Tried ringing the enforment dept of dvla and the have the option af pay fine or pay fine. You cannot speak to a person.
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post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 16:39
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Jlc
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:03
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A case of computer says no. The CIE fixed penalty seems that have been automatically issued because the MIB record was removed by the insurer as the keeper details had not changed at that time - the keeper change can obviously take some days or weeks. (This is why the online transfer system is far better)

Bizarrely, the DVLA guidance about this makes no mention of sales, just SORN and scrapping etc.

s144A RTA 1988 is quite clear that only the person in whose name the vehicle is registered (i.e. the registered keeper) can be guilty of the offence - for which you can prove you were not. Whether they progress to court is unknown but they may well blindly try.

And they work for us...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:28


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:03
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Welcome to Capita being desperate for cash, you certainly shouldn’t be keeping a car insured you no longer own as your insurer would be liable for anything it did even if you weren’t driving.

I’m amazed they were already sending notices out 5 days after the event.

I’d suggest just sitting tight until they are dumb enough to try a court case, you are under no obligation to respond to them now.


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southpaw82
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:10
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:03) *
s144A RTA 1998 is quite clear that only the person in whose name the vehicle is registered (i.e. the registered keeper) can be guilty of the offence - for which you can prove you were not. Whether they progress to court is unknown but they may well blindly try.

1988. Section 144B is relevant here:

QUOTE
(1) A person (“the registered keeper”) in whose name a vehicle which does not meet the insurance requirements is registered at any particular time (“ the relevant time ”) does not commit an offence under section 144A of this Act at that time if any of the following conditions are satisfied.

(4) The third condition is that the registered keeper—
(a) is not at the relevant time the person keeping the vehicle, and
(b) if previously he was the person keeping the vehicle, he has by the relevant time complied with any requirements under subsection (7)(a) below that he is required to have complied with by the relevant or any earlier time.

(7) Regulations may make provision—
(a) for the purposes of subsection (4)(b) and (5)© above, requiring a person in whose name a vehicle is registered to furnish such particulars and make such declarations as may be prescribed, and to do so at such times and in such manner as may be prescribed


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:29
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:10) *
1988.

My typo...

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:10) *
Section 144B is relevant here

Even better.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:34
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:29) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:10) *
1988.

My typo...



I suffer from fat fingers.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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bama
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:44
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the stop letting them near you......


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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powercut
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 21:07
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Thanks guys. So basically the fact that both new and old keepers confirm transfer date to be the 13th thats good enough. Add to that the new keepers v5 shows the 13th also adds strength to the argument.
Seems utterly unbelievable to me as just about everyone that sell a car by there reckoning could receive a fine the days/weeks before they acknowledge the transfer or keepership. Seems acknowledgement letters will take longer and longer so the can "justifiably" issuing fines.
what do you think i should do? Ring up the main dvla number and speak to a person, hopefully with some common sense. After all their records show change of keeper on the 13th if they are looking at it on the screen how can they possibly chase us for not being insured on the 17th makes no sense

This post has been edited by powercut: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 21:09
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Logician
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 01:30
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The system as set up and as set out on the MIB website is that an Insurance Advisory Letter is sent out and only if the situation is not satisfactorily explained or corrected is a fixed penalty issued. Are you sure what you have is a fixed penalty notice, it relates to the same car, and that it refers to 17th January 2018?


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The Rookie
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 07:03
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I did raise that earlier, it’s incredibly fast, DVLA don’t update keeper details that fast so they’d be sending out hundreds while they are getting around to uodateing details.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 14:31
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As above. Much as I don't want to doubt that a partnership between the DVLA and Capita could produce such idiocy, is it possible you just have the usual threatogram that Capita have probably cribbed from their TV Licensing contract?

Just because they say they will take you to court and fine you £1,000 doesn't mean they aren't talking crapita.
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powercut
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 17:29
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yes its the same car. sold on the 13th. This is the notice they sent which i copied and filled in the rear as directed and sent back to them including copies of insurance, copy of insurance cancellation on the 14th. copy of the signed and dated v5 which was sent back to them signed for delivery, which they received and new owner now have new v5 show date of ownership being 13th

anyone got a plan of action? should i just phone dvla and explain or at least ask them to explain why im being fined for not insuring a vehicle on the 17/01/18 when it clearly has been registered to someone else since the 13th and they know about it. New keeper is happy to give me a copy of his v5 showing when its was aquired
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nosferatu1001
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 21:47
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Tells you what to do - fill out the form.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 22:22
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 21:47) *
Tells you what to do - fill out the form.

Think he already has and has had it rejected.

Though sending again with reference to their rejection and a request that someone with some common sense looks at the supporting documents at least may get something other then computer says no.
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powercut
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 23:13
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form was filled out plus evidence supplied as mentioned above. came back rejected. contact number on letter is only a payment line eg option 1 to pay fine. option 2 dont pay fine which then says we can no longer help you goodbye.
im really quite horrified that this can happen. just not sure what to do next
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disgrunt
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 23:41
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Another option for the OP is the papers.

CAPITA are topical at moment (share price crashing, mismanagement etc) and an idiotic Penalty should make good copy. (and lead to a fairly swift retraction of your penalty).



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DancingDad
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 09:44
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You've got the legislation that applies thanks to SP and JLC.
You've got (or will have) a copy of the present V5c courtesy of the new owner.
You've got your own records and a copy of the recorded delivery slip that shows that DVLA signed for your bit of the old V5.
If they do go so far as to progress this to court, I cannot see how you could be found guilty so one option is to wait and see what happens next.

Personally I'd be on the phone, email and if needs be letter, basically getting as high up the tree as I can and asking WTF.
As a minimum, I would be responding to their rejection letter with all information including a very clear statement that they are trying to fine you for not insuring a vehicle when their own records show that you were not the owner at the time.... list the dates, be clear.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 12:11
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Can you invite them to take you to court, listing all your evidence etc, and state that should they be so foolish as to do so, you will be claiming your full costs against them, as their case had no chance of success, and they knew that before ?
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powercut
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 15:46
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tried ringing them didnt work. they confirmed keeper details have been updated and shows the 13/01/18. i told the guy what ive told you and he assured my it was a mistake just send in the appeal. once i told him i had an it was rejected he said he couldnt comment on the matter further and ended the call. wtf

i think i can see what dvla are getting at they are bending the rta1988 act i think?
they say and i qoute from the letter "the registered keeper continues to be liable for insuring and licensing their vehicle or marking a SORN until the DVLA is nofified of its disposal and an acknowledgement letter has been received in confirmation"

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The Rookie
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 16:04
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Which is total bollocks....I think i'd just suggest to them you'll see them in court.

I think they are so desperate for cash they will say anything, but a court will see right through it.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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