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Totting up ban with Court date impending.
monkeybrains74
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 20:55
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Hi.

First of all, I am full aware it's my own doing and even though the last offence was a genuine error on my part, it is still my own fault

The last offence took place on the 12/10/17. The road is a duel lane i.e. 2 lanes going the same direction (and 2 the other) through a town and I assumed wrongly that it was a 40 limit when it was in-fact a 30.

A policeman with a radar caught me doing 35 and so received a FPN a few days later.

I send the form back and this morning received the below:

"A further endorsement of 3 penalty points makes you liable for disqualification through the 'totting up' process. This can no longer be dealt with at the fixed penalty stage and xxxxxx Police will contact you in due course"

I checked earlier on the DVLA site and this is showing the below:


SP30
Penalty points: 3
Offence date: 25 Feb 2017

SP30
Penalty points: 3
Offence date: 2 May 2016

SP30
Penalty points: 3
Offence date: 18 Oct 2014
Expired

This shows that at the time, I had 9 points but the 3 on the 18th October came off just 6 days after the date of offence.

I'm really asking if anyone has any advice regarding my court appearance. I wish to accept fault but would like to know what I can possibly do to reduce any ban. Should I get legal representation?

The DVLA site is now showing I only have 6 points, so I guess the 3 expired came off and any for this latest offence are yet to be added?
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post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 20:55
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Logician
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:13
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 10:41) *
Further to what Fredd and CP and others have intemated or stated, the discretionary tolerance has not actually got anything to do with taking into account driver's mistakes per se. It pretty much comes about by the manufacturing of speedometers and their minute inaccuracies.


And even more so, the only method of speed measurement available to the police, involving policemen hiding in hedgerows, one waving a handkerchief when the vehicle passed so that his colleague could start the stop watch which he stopped when the vehicle reached him at the end of the measured distance, measured by means of a very long tape. Appreciating that it might not be possible to convince a court that this system was accurate to within 1 mph to the criminal standard of beyond reasonable doubt, the police for entirely pragmatic reasons chose to exercise their discretion and allow a margin of error.



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Mayhem007
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 10:03
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 10:51) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 10:41) *
unless you can prove mitigation.


Presumably you mean exceptional hardship?


Absolutely. I am sure it has been said in previous posts [not havinf read them all], but the hardship would have to be predominantly to others rather than the OP.


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The Rookie
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 11:35
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 11:03) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 10:51) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 10:41) *
unless you can prove mitigation.


Presumably you mean exceptional hardship?


Absolutely. I am sure it has been said in previous posts [not havinf read them all], but the hardship would have to be predominantly to others rather than the OP.

No, the statute mentions exceptional hardship, nothing about who to.

The court when considering what is (or is not) exceptional may place more weight on hardship to what is, on the face of it, an innocent party, but no third party need be impacted for it to be exceptional.


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monkeybrains74
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 12:24
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QUOTE (thisisntme @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:52) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:49) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:32) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:23) *
this may help lesser the conviction?


35 in a 30 is only ever going to be 3 points whether you say nothing or recite the bible in Russian.


How do people who do over 100 on the motorway avoid a ban?


But your OP says 35...

Weird edit - You said in your original reply that your speed was 34...


Just clarifying it was 35 smile.gif


Thank you all again for your help.

I received the Single Justice Procedural Notice this morning and while I fully expect to get a 6 month ban, I will plea mitigation with regards to needing transport to get to the sorting office.

Can I ask that while it says pleading online is the best option, is this the case? or would it be better to send a hard copy?

Thanks.
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Logician
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 14:11
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With computerisation, I expect online is best and less likely to be misplaced. You are not pleading mitigation, you wish to put forward an exceptional hardship argument. State that on the form and your case will be sent to an ordinary court where you can attend.


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The Rookie
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 14:58
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If you are going to be banned then they will invite you to attend a court apparently anyway.

This is NOT mitigation, it’s an exceptional hardship plea, mitigation is trying to mitigate a single offence, you won’t be doing that.


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monkeybrains74
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 16:33
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QUOTE (Logician @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 14:11) *
With computerisation, I expect online is best and less likely to be misplaced. You are not pleading mitigation, you wish to put forward an exceptional hardship argument. State that on the form and your case will be sent to an ordinary court where you can attend.


Thanks for your reply.

I still don't understand what mitigation is if it's not the reasons I outlined in my initial post.

Do I have to say "exceptional hardship" on the form or just enter the hardship info in the mitigation fields?


QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 14:58) *
If you are going to be banned then they will invite you to attend a court apparently anyway.

This is NOT mitigation, it’s an exceptional hardship plea, mitigation is trying to mitigate a single offence, you won’t be doing that.


Ah okay I think I understand. I'm not trying to mitigate the last speeding offence for which I'm guilty but to claim exceptional hardship on the totting up ban.

So I leave the mitigation section but how do I plead exceptional hardship? I mean is there a section on the online form? Forgive me but not on a computer at the moment.
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 17:26
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You can put what you like on the form, "I intend to present an argument for exceptional hardship" is fine. As has been said SJP is an administrative process done by someone in an office. They will barely look at your form as their only job is to refer the case to magistrate's court.
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Mayhem007
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 10:16
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You will be expected to go into the witness box and state under affirmation or on the bible your mitigation, which will be given more weight. If you simply give statement then this will be given less weight and may not be taken into consideration.


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thisisntme
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 11:46
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 10:16) *
You will be expected to go into the witness box and state under affirmation or on the bible your mitigation, which will be given more weight. If you simply give statement then this will be given less weight and may not be taken into consideration.


You're continuing the confusion. What is being discussed is Exception Hardship. This is different to mitigation. A mitigation argument will count for nought when it comes to Exceptional Hardship.


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Lodesman
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 12:17
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If your exceptional hardship plea involves others such as a disabled relative take any supporting documentation with you to back up your plea.

Also, don't forget that the magistrates will also have in the back of their minds the question that, if you need your licence so badly, why have you risked it by speeding regularly.

This post has been edited by Lodesman: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 12:18
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stewpots
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:14
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QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 12:24) *
QUOTE (thisisntme @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:52) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:49) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:32) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:23) *
this may help lesser the conviction?


35 in a 30 is only ever going to be 3 points whether you say nothing or recite the bible in Russian.


How do people who do over 100 on the motorway avoid a ban?


But your OP says 35...

Weird edit - You said in your original reply that your speed was 34...


Just clarifying it was 35 smile.gif


Thank you all again for your help.

I received the Single Justice Procedural Notice this morning and while I fully expect to get a 6 month ban, I will plea mitigation with regards to needing transport to get to the sorting office.

Can I ask that while it says pleading online is the best option, is this the case? or would it be better to send a hard copy?

Thanks.


I faced a totting up band and pleaded hard ship on two incident third parties , not about what it would do to me and that was ok

I subsequently appealed a case to the crown and got of that and was back to 6 points


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monkeybrains74
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 21:22
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QUOTE (stewpots @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:14) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 12:24) *
QUOTE (thisisntme @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:52) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:49) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:32) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:23) *
this may help lesser the conviction?


35 in a 30 is only ever going to be 3 points whether you say nothing or recite the bible in Russian.


How do people who do over 100 on the motorway avoid a ban?


But your OP says 35...

Weird edit - You said in your original reply that your speed was 34...


Just clarifying it was 35 smile.gif


Thank you all again for your help.

I received the Single Justice Procedural Notice this morning and while I fully expect to get a 6 month ban, I will plea mitigation with regards to needing transport to get to the sorting office.

Can I ask that while it says pleading online is the best option, is this the case? or would it be better to send a hard copy?

Thanks.


I faced a totting up band and pleaded hard ship on two incident third parties , not about what it would do to me and that was ok

I subsequently appealed a case to the crown and got of that and was back to 6 points


Glad to hear that.

I'm not sure that I can please hardship for anyone else though as am single at the moment and the only unfortunate thing is I take my parents out once a week and short break once a year.

My dad is diabetic but can still drive etc. so while not in the best of health, he doesn't need me as such.


QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 02:18) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:56) *
if it was 34 I may have been okay.


Enforcement normally starts at 110% + 2, so in a 30 it would be 35.

Had your speed been measured at 34, you would not have been stopped.



Yes, it's a shame I wasn't just 1mph lower as that and the fact 3 points were to come off seems a little unfair that I should get 6 months.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 15:42) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 23:00) *
I was just thinking that the court may be a little lenient, as with it only being 1 mile over and points came off literally a few days later, they may have had a bit of leeway.

The court will see it as 5 miles over, the legal limit is 30, not 34.



I agree but as it has changed from a 40 to 30 over the years and there are no signs up, it would have been helpful if the council could have put up signs.

I'm not making excuses as such but it seems a little unfair, as while the speed limit was changed, I wasn't living there so was non the wiser. With it being not dissimilar to a dual carriageway, I just assumed (stupidly) that it wasn't the same as a single lane.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 14:58) *
If you are going to be banned then they will invite you to attend a court apparently anyway.

This is NOT mitigation, it’s an exceptional hardship plea, mitigation is trying to mitigate a single offence, you won’t be doing that.


I don't see why I can't plead mitigation in the sense of me under the impression it was a 40 with the dual carriage way and the fact the speed had been changed from 40 to 30 and I was going with the flow of the traffic.

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 17:26) *
You can put what you like on the form, "I intend to present an argument for exceptional hardship" is fine. As has been said SJP is an administrative process done by someone in an office. They will barely look at your form as their only job is to refer the case to magistrate's court.


So while the admin don't look at it, it is important to put any reasons as to why I don't think I deserve 6 months as when it goes to court, my argument will then be raised?

Also I don't have to state it's exceptional hardship on the form? I can simply put a list of points as to why it could be considered a lower penalty?


Yes, I fully understand but like I said, I genuinely didn't think I was speeding, I thought I was doing 35 in a 40 - as that is what the limit used to be.

This post has been edited by monkeybrains74: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 21:25
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Logician
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 21:36
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As already explained to you, you cannot get less than 3 points for speeding so you are wasting your effort on trying to mitigate your latest offence. You need to present an exceptional hardship case, you should say that is what you intend to do. Your EH case should not say anything about the offences that make up the 12 points, the court may not consider anything said to present any of the offences as less serious. The court can consider only hardship caused to yourself or others, and will consider hardship to others more significant than to yourself. So personal circumstances matter, how you came by the points and mitigation for the latest offence do not matter at all, cannot be taken into account, and waste the magistrates' time reading about them if you put them in.


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monkeybrains74
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:02
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QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 21:36) *
As already explained to you, you cannot get less than 3 points for speeding so you are wasting your effort on trying to mitigate your latest offence. You need to present an exceptional hardship case, you should say that is what you intend to do. Your EH case should not say anything about the offences that make up the 12 points, the court may not consider anything said to present any of the offences as less serious. The court can consider only hardship caused to yourself or others, and will consider hardship to others more significant than to yourself. So personal circumstances matter, how you came by the points and mitigation for the latest offence do not matter at all, cannot be taken into account, and waste the magistrates' time reading about them if you put them in.


Thanks for your help.

Just seems a little off that I can't explain why I thought it was still a 30.

Surely at the court then will ask if there's anything I have to say and I can raise the above then?

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The Rookie
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:16
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Why you thought it was a thirty is wholly irrelevant unless it constituted a defence to the allegation.

For totting each case that acquired the points can be contested, once you have totted up it’s just the EH that will be considered.

Entirely logical really as the court can’t revisit the preceding cases.

While you may think it’s unfair (I don’t and suspect you think that as you feel a ‘bit hard done by’) that’s not relevant, it’s the law.


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southpaw82
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:21
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QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:02) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 21:36) *
As already explained to you, you cannot get less than 3 points for speeding so you are wasting your effort on trying to mitigate your latest offence. You need to present an exceptional hardship case, you should say that is what you intend to do. Your EH case should not say anything about the offences that make up the 12 points, the court may not consider anything said to present any of the offences as less serious. The court can consider only hardship caused to yourself or others, and will consider hardship to others more significant than to yourself. So personal circumstances matter, how you came by the points and mitigation for the latest offence do not matter at all, cannot be taken into account, and waste the magistrates' time reading about them if you put them in.


Thanks for your help.

Just seems a little off that I can't explain why I thought it was still a 30.

Surely at the court then will ask if there's anything I have to say and I can raise the above then?

I’m not sure why you’re having difficulty with this point. You cannot mitigate the penalty to fewer than 3 points because that is the least the court can award. The court cannot take account of any exceptional hardship argument that seeks to lessen the seriousness of the offence.

QUOTE
(4) No account is to be taken under subsection (1) above of any of the following circumstances—
(a) any circumstances that are alleged to make the offence or any of the offences not a serious one,
(b) hardship, other than exceptional hardship, or
(c) any circumstances which, within the three years immediately preceding the conviction, have been taken into account under that subsection in ordering the offender to be disqualified for a shorter period or not ordering him to be disqualified.


You can say whatever you like but that is the law.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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monkeybrains74
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:47
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:16) *
Why you thought it was a thirty is wholly irrelevant unless it constituted a defence to the allegation.


It definitely doesn't constitute a defense?

It also baffles me why they don't put a 30 speed limit sign up as like I said before, with it being 2 lanes in the same direction people still consider rightly or wrongly that it is still a 40.

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:21) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:02) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 21:36) *
As already explained to you, you cannot get less than 3 points for speeding so you are wasting your effort on trying to mitigate your latest offence. You need to present an exceptional hardship case, you should say that is what you intend to do. Your EH case should not say anything about the offences that make up the 12 points, the court may not consider anything said to present any of the offences as less serious. The court can consider only hardship caused to yourself or others, and will consider hardship to others more significant than to yourself. So personal circumstances matter, how you came by the points and mitigation for the latest offence do not matter at all, cannot be taken into account, and waste the magistrates' time reading about them if you put them in.


Thanks for your help.

Just seems a little off that I can't explain why I thought it was still a 30.

Surely at the court then will ask if there's anything I have to say and I can raise the above then?

I’m not sure why you’re having difficulty with this point. You cannot mitigate the penalty to fewer than 3 points because that is the least the court can award. The court cannot take account of any exceptional hardship argument that seeks to lessen the seriousness of the offence.

QUOTE
(4) No account is to be taken under subsection (1) above of any of the following circumstances—
(a) any circumstances that are alleged to make the offence or any of the offences not a serious one,
(b) hardship, other than exceptional hardship, or
(c) any circumstances which, within the three years immediately preceding the conviction, have been taken into account under that subsection in ordering the offender to be disqualified for a shorter period or not ordering him to be disqualified.


You can say whatever you like but that is the law.


I guess it's not worth going in person then as it's going to be a waste of my time.

I have no case for Exceptional Hardship apart from having to take orders to the Sorting Office but I'm sure they'd just tell me to get a Taxi.

Thanks for your help all.

This post has been edited by monkeybrains74: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:47
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southpaw82
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:47
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QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:41) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:16) *
Why you thought it was a thirty is wholly irrelevant unless it constituted a defence to the allegation.


It definitely doesn't constitute a defense?

It also baffles me why they don't put a 30 speed limit sign up as like I said before, with it being 2 lanes in the same direction people still consider rightly or wrongly that it is still a 40.

"People" should know that two lanes doesn’t mean the limit is 40. That concept doesn’t exist in law or the Highway Code.


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monkeybrains74
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:54
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:47) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:41) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 22:16) *
Why you thought it was a thirty is wholly irrelevant unless it constituted a defence to the allegation.


It definitely doesn't constitute a defense?

It also baffles me why they don't put a 30 speed limit sign up as like I said before, with it being 2 lanes in the same direction people still consider rightly or wrongly that it is still a 40.

"People" should know that two lanes doesn’t mean the limit is 40. That concept doesn’t exist in law or the Highway Code.


Everyone is overtaking me on that stretch of road when I'm doing 30.

Maybe a sign would help.
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