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Totting up ban with Court date impending.
monkeybrains74
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 20:55
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Hi.

First of all, I am full aware it's my own doing and even though the last offence was a genuine error on my part, it is still my own fault

The last offence took place on the 12/10/17. The road is a duel lane i.e. 2 lanes going the same direction (and 2 the other) through a town and I assumed wrongly that it was a 40 limit when it was in-fact a 30.

A policeman with a radar caught me doing 35 and so received a FPN a few days later.

I send the form back and this morning received the below:

"A further endorsement of 3 penalty points makes you liable for disqualification through the 'totting up' process. This can no longer be dealt with at the fixed penalty stage and xxxxxx Police will contact you in due course"

I checked earlier on the DVLA site and this is showing the below:


SP30
Penalty points: 3
Offence date: 25 Feb 2017

SP30
Penalty points: 3
Offence date: 2 May 2016

SP30
Penalty points: 3
Offence date: 18 Oct 2014
Expired

This shows that at the time, I had 9 points but the 3 on the 18th October came off just 6 days after the date of offence.

I'm really asking if anyone has any advice regarding my court appearance. I wish to accept fault but would like to know what I can possibly do to reduce any ban. Should I get legal representation?

The DVLA site is now showing I only have 6 points, so I guess the 3 expired came off and any for this latest offence are yet to be added?
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post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 20:55
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NewJudge
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 19:15
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QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:59) *
...and the only real hardship is getting to the sorting office and picking up stock which will be a hassle.


Unfortunately driving bans are intended to cause a bit of hassle. angry.gif

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 19:15
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monkeybrains74
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 19:38
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 19:15) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:59) *
...and the only real hardship is getting to the sorting office and picking up stock which will be a hassle.


Unfortunately driving bans are intended to cause a bit of hassle. angry.gif



I see that now sad.gif

Not sure how these people who knowingly speed and are far in excess of the limit get away with it but hey ho.

Thanks again anyway for your help.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 22:41
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Because the hardship plea doesn’t take account of those factors.

Or only speed where the cameras aren’t....


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monkeybrains74
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 23:56
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:56) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:23) *
I also don't understand the point of the mitigation field on the form. If my points aren't relevant, what are?

Mitigation is trying to reduce the sentence for the offence. You won’t mitigate much in a speeding case. It is not the same as pleading exceptional hardship. By law, exceptional hardship cannot include arguments that seek to make the offences for which you have received points less serious (i.e. mitigation of those offences).


Yes, so as I am admitting I'm in the wrong, ccan I inform the court of these non-hardship points in the hope of a lesser penalty?

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peterguk
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:01
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QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 23:56) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:56) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:23) *
I also don't understand the point of the mitigation field on the form. If my points aren't relevant, what are?

Mitigation is trying to reduce the sentence for the offence. You won’t mitigate much in a speeding case. It is not the same as pleading exceptional hardship. By law, exceptional hardship cannot include arguments that seek to make the offences for which you have received points less serious (i.e. mitigation of those offences).


Yes, so as I am admitting I'm in the wrong, ccan I inform the court of these non-hardship points in the hope of a lesser penalty?




What points are you thinking of making?

From your first post i would not be saying you had no idea of the correct limit, and generally, there is little to mitigate in a speeding offence.

A contrite apology for a momentary lapse in concentration might be a better approach.

for 35 in a 30 it's going to be 3 points whatever you say.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:38


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monkeybrains74
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:23
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:01) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 23:56) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:56) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:23) *
I also don't understand the point of the mitigation field on the form. If my points aren't relevant, what are?

Mitigation is trying to reduce the sentence for the offence. You won’t mitigate much in a speeding case. It is not the same as pleading exceptional hardship. By law, exceptional hardship cannot include arguments that seek to make the offences for which you have received points less serious (i.e. mitigation of those offences).


Yes, so as I am admitting I'm in the wrong, ccan I inform the court of these non-hardship points in the hope of a lesser penalty?




What points are you thinking of making?

From your first post i would not be saying you had no idea of the correct limit, and generally, there is little to mitigate in a speeding offence.

A contrite apology for a momentary lapse in concentration might be a better approach.

for 34 in a 30 it's going to be 3 points whatever you say.


Thanks.

That's what I mean in another post, if I go in person and sincerely apologise, this may help lesser the conviction? After apologizing and they possibly then asking for any reasons as to why it happened, maybe I could mention some of those points? rather than saying nothing. Or should I just point blank say nothing, admit I'm in the wrong?

Again, I do fully admit I have gone over the limit but it was not intentional and to be frank, I'm very angry with myself for making this stupid mistake.
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peterguk
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:32
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QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:23) *
this may help lesser the conviction?


35 in a 30 is only ever going to be 3 points whether you say nothing or recite the bible in Russian.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:37


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southpaw82
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:33
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The minimum number of points the court can impose for speeding is 3, unless there are special reasons not to, which don’t appear to apply in your case.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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monkeybrains74
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:51
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:32) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:23) *
this may help lesser the conviction?


35 in a 30 is only ever going to be 3 points whether you say nothing or recite the bible in Russian.


How do people who do over 100 on the motorway avoid a ban?

QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:05) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 16:59) *
I work for myself and have to take mail to the sorting office, along with pick up stock.
Up until a few years ago, this road was a 40 limit.
I was going at a speed which felt right on that road and the same speed as other users. It's a double lane akin to a dual carriage way with central reservation, where there are no residential buildings but admittedly there is before (where I was doing 30).
It is going down hill, towards a bend so speed crept up and don't like looking at the speedo in circumstances like this as dangerous.
It was dry and clear visibility
If it was around 5 days later, I would have 6 points on my license due to 3 coming off, so then there would have been no question of a totting up ban.
It was 34 in a 30 and understand if it had been 33, I would have been okay. A poiliceman with a radar gun recorded this.


Again, I am aware none of the above count for anything so will go to court in person and see what they say but expecting a 6 month ban.


Only your first point is remotely relevant for a hardship plea - and a very weak one. You need to find things that are exceptional to reduce or avoid a ban altogether. Impact on other people always counts higher than just what affects you.

The rest of your points relate to the speeding offence - that will be 3 points whatever you say about it, so forget those.


Thank you.

This post has been edited by monkeybrains74: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:51
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thisisntme
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:52
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QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:49) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:32) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:23) *
this may help lesser the conviction?


35 in a 30 is only ever going to be 3 points whether you say nothing or recite the bible in Russian.


How do people who do over 100 on the motorway avoid a ban?


But your OP says 35...

Weird edit - You said in your original reply that your speed was 34...

This post has been edited by thisisntme: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:53


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monkeybrains74
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:56
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:33) *
The minimum number of points the court can impose for speeding is 3, unless there are special reasons not to, which don’t appear to apply in your case.


Okay, thanks.

I'll go in person and see what happens.



QUOTE (thisisntme @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:52) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:49) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:32) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:23) *
this may help lesser the conviction?


35 in a 30 is only ever going to be 3 points whether you say nothing or recite the bible in Russian.


How do people who do over 100 on the motorway avoid a ban?


But your OP says 35...

Weird edit - You said in your original reply that your speed was 34...



Yes sorry, it's 35.

If I remember correctly, if it was 34 I may have been okay.
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peterguk
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 02:18
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QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:56) *
if it was 34 I may have been okay.


Enforcement normally starts at 110% + 2, so in a 30 it would be 35.

Had your speed been measured at 34, you would not have been stopped.


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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 09:28
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As others have said, mitigation is pretty pointless seeing as you'll be at the minimum the magistrates can sentence you at anyway.

However, the mitigation you have provided could easily be interpreted as you thinking you know better than the speed limit, not that you really check your speedo much anyway, and asides, you were barely speeding anyway so why all the big deal?

With that approach the magistrates may well think that the attitude is exactly one intended to be penalised by the totting system.

Not saying that to be difficult, just to highlight there is a fine line between mitigation and excuses for speeding. It admittedly doesn't matter much this time around, but you never know when you might need those magistrates on side and thinking you're a careful motorist in future (hopefully not!). Absent of exceptional hardship contrition is normally the easiest tact.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 09:29
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monkeybrains74
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 14:05
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:05) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 16:59) *
I work for myself and have to take mail to the sorting office, along with pick up stock.
Up until a few years ago, this road was a 40 limit.
I was going at a speed which felt right on that road and the same speed as other users. It's a double lane akin to a dual carriage way with central reservation, where there are no residential buildings but admittedly there is before (where I was doing 30).
It is going down hill, towards a bend so speed crept up and don't like looking at the speedo in circumstances like this as dangerous.
It was dry and clear visibility
If it was around 5 days later, I would have 6 points on my license due to 3 coming off, so then there would have been no question of a totting up ban.
It was 34 in a 30 and understand if it had been 33, I would have been okay. A poiliceman with a radar gun recorded this.


Again, I am aware none of the above count for anything so will go to court in person and see what they say but expecting a 6 month ban.


Only your first point is remotely relevant for a hardship plea - and a very weak one. You need to find things that are exceptional to reduce or avoid a ban altogether. Impact on other people always counts higher than just what affects you.

The rest of your points relate to the speeding offence - that will be 3 points whatever you say about it, so forget those.


Thank you.


QUOTE (thisisntme @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:52) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:49) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:32) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:23) *
this may help lesser the conviction?


35 in a 30 is only ever going to be 3 points whether you say nothing or recite the bible in Russian.


How do people who do over 100 on the motorway avoid a ban?


But your OP says 35...

Weird edit - You said in your original reply that your speed was 34...


I'm going to have to re-check this. I'm pretty sure now it was 35 I was recorded at but if it had been 34 I would have been okay.


QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 02:18) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:56) *
if it was 34 I may have been okay.


Enforcement normally starts at 110% + 2, so in a 30 it would be 35.

Had your speed been measured at 34, you would not have been stopped.


Yes, I read that on here.

I was just thinking that the court may be a little lenient, as with it only being 1 mile over and points came off literally a few days later, they may have had a bit of leeway.

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 09:28) *
As others have said, mitigation is pretty pointless seeing as you'll be at the minimum the magistrates can sentence you at anyway.

However, the mitigation you have provided could easily be interpreted as you thinking you know better than the speed limit, not that you really check your speedo much anyway, and asides, you were barely speeding anyway so why all the big deal?

With that approach the magistrates may well think that the attitude is exactly one intended to be penalised by the totting system.

Not saying that to be difficult, just to highlight there is a fine line between mitigation and excuses for speeding. It admittedly doesn't matter much this time around, but you never know when you might need those magistrates on side and thinking you're a careful motorist in future (hopefully not!). Absent of exceptional hardship contrition is normally the easiest tact.


Thank you for your post.

Yes, I fully understand what you're saying and if that's how they wish to interpret it, then so bit it.

I do know myself that at the time, I didn't realize I was speeding but obviously this is no excuse to them.

At the end of the day, I was over the limit.

I'll go to the court, apologize and I guess that's all I can do.

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monkeybrains74
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 23:00
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 09:28) *
As others have said, mitigation is pretty pointless seeing as you'll be at the minimum the magistrates can sentence you at anyway.

However, the mitigation you have provided could easily be interpreted as you thinking you know better than the speed limit, not that you really check your speedo much anyway, and asides, you were barely speeding anyway so why all the big deal?

With that approach the magistrates may well think that the attitude is exactly one intended to be penalised by the totting system.

Not saying that to be difficult, just to highlight there is a fine line between mitigation and excuses for speeding. It admittedly doesn't matter much this time around, but you never know when you might need those magistrates on side and thinking you're a careful motorist in future (hopefully not!). Absent of exceptional hardship contrition is normally the easiest tact.


Thank you for your post.

Yes, I fully understand what you're saying and if that's how they wish to interpret it, then so bit it.

I do know myself that at the time, I didn't realize I was speeding but obviously this is no excuse to them.

At the end of the day, I was over the limit.

I'll go to the court, apologize and I guess that's all I can do.

QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 02:18) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 00:56) *
if it was 34 I may have been okay.


Enforcement normally starts at 110% + 2, so in a 30 it would be 35.

Had your speed been measured at 34, you would not have been stopped.


Yes, I read that on here.

I was just thinking that the court may be a little lenient, as with it only being 1 mile over and points came off literally a few days later, they may have had a bit of leeway.
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cp8759
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 15:42
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QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 23:00) *
I was just thinking that the court may be a little lenient, as with it only being 1 mile over and points came off literally a few days later, they may have had a bit of leeway.

The court will see it as 5 miles over, the legal limit is 30, not 34.


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Mayhem007
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 11:17
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As has been implied by others the magistrates will show no leniency at all. The police are the ones that decide to charge you with speeding and present their evidence to the CPS. The magistrates hands are tied by legislation. You were at least 1 mile over the limit and that is what they decide on the sentence, based on the offence and mitigation and previous record.


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Fredd
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 11:50
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 11:17) *
You were at least 1 mile over the limit

As has been pointed out, the OP may have been 1 mph over the (discretionary) enforcement limit, but that was 5 mph over the actual speed limit.


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Mayhem007
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 10:41
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 11:50) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 11:17) *
You were at least 1 mile over the limit

As has been pointed out, the OP may have been 1 mph over the (discretionary) enforcement limit, but that was 5 mph over the actual speed limit.


Further to what Fredd and CP and others have intemated or stated, the discretionary tolerance has not actually got anything to do with taking into account driver's mistakes per se. It pretty much comes about by the manufacturing of speedometers and their minute inaccuracies.

Manufacturers were given specs on how accurate speedometers should be in the earlier days. Speedometers inaccuracies should not under read by more than 10%, however the over reading is not so strictly controlled, as over reading should have drivers driving below the required speed limit. Manufacturers tend to deliberatley calibrate speedometers for over reading and these will over read within 10%. The accuracies of modern speedometers are now much more superior at the lower end of speed.

So if at the time of driving the speed was measured as 34 or 35, chances are your speedometer was reading higher. Nevertheless the magistrates will judge the case on the information or evidence presented to them.

Don't expect any leniency. The sentence will be 6 months ban, unless you can prove mitigation.


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peterguk
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 10:51
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 10:41) *
unless you can prove mitigation.


Presumably you mean exceptional hardship?


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