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Totting up ban with Court date impending.
monkeybrains74
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 20:55
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Hi.

First of all, I am full aware it's my own doing and even though the last offence was a genuine error on my part, it is still my own fault

The last offence took place on the 12/10/17. The road is a duel lane i.e. 2 lanes going the same direction (and 2 the other) through a town and I assumed wrongly that it was a 40 limit when it was in-fact a 30.

A policeman with a radar caught me doing 35 and so received a FPN a few days later.

I send the form back and this morning received the below:

"A further endorsement of 3 penalty points makes you liable for disqualification through the 'totting up' process. This can no longer be dealt with at the fixed penalty stage and xxxxxx Police will contact you in due course"

I checked earlier on the DVLA site and this is showing the below:


SP30
Penalty points: 3
Offence date: 25 Feb 2017

SP30
Penalty points: 3
Offence date: 2 May 2016

SP30
Penalty points: 3
Offence date: 18 Oct 2014
Expired

This shows that at the time, I had 9 points but the 3 on the 18th October came off just 6 days after the date of offence.

I'm really asking if anyone has any advice regarding my court appearance. I wish to accept fault but would like to know what I can possibly do to reduce any ban. Should I get legal representation?

The DVLA site is now showing I only have 6 points, so I guess the 3 expired came off and any for this latest offence are yet to be added?
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post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 20:55
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Logician
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 21:54
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As you rightly say, it is points at the date of offence that matter, that you are now down to 6 is not relevant, although there is nothing to stop you mentioning that in your argument. You have no points for this latest offence until you go to court, which is why nothing is shown by the DVLA. The police have 6 months to charge you and often take the best part of that, so do not think you have been forgotten about if you hear nothing for months. As you are admitting the offence, the only way to avoid a ban is to put forward an exceptional hardship argument. There is no reason you cannot put this together and present it yourself, it will sound more authentic than a solicitor going through the ritual s/he has done hundreds of times before. Hardship to others counts for more than hardship to yourself, so start thinking about the effects both direct and indirect of being unable to drive for 6 months.

When you have got it all down we can critique it here and perhaps get it a bit more polished. It is possible for the court to reduce the 6 months but most totting bans are for 6 months or there is no ban at all.


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andy_foster
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 21:56
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Points are not automatically added to your licence every time you exceed the speed limit - so as you have not been able to accept a fixed penalty and have not yet been convicted by a court of law, of course the points for the latest offence have not been added yet. They do not currently exist.

For the purposes of totting up, it is the dates of the offences that matters - the latest offence (assuming that you are eventually convicted) was committed 6 days before the first offence was 3 years old, so will still count.

Search the forum for "exceptional hardship"


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Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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I am Weasel
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 21:57
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Have you done a Speed Awareness Course in the last 3 years?
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monkeybrains74
post Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 22:09
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Thank you all for your replies.

Things are much clearer to me now. I'm self-employed but work from home, so take mail to the sorting office and pick up stock, along with hospital appointments and taking my parents out now and again so I guess these can't really be ruled as Hardship.

I will have a good read through everything on here (especially the hardship section) and hopefully there is something on there I can use.

I've also took a speed awareness course which was last year, so can't do that again as you know.

Thank you again and please do post up if there is anything that can help my case that may not be elsewhere.

This post has been edited by monkeybrains74: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 - 22:11
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monkeybrains74
post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 10:45
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I've not got round to reading through everything regarding hardship on here yet to forgive me please if the below is of no use:

I did suffer from Anxiety and Panic attacks and whenever I'm out and no I have a place of refuge, that does help me.

My doctor is also aware of this issue and has prescribed medication which I've been able to stay off for well over a year.

I've also full stopped drinking and smoking over the last 14 months due to a liver condition/slight drinking problem and not having a car may trigger thoughts of starting those up again.

I guess the above are not rules for hardship but no car would definitley be an issue in these senses.
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monkeybrains74
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 12:37
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Just a quick update:

I spoke to a nice chap a week or so ago from the Central Ticket Office who said it is still going to court and I should receive a date soon.

Also, last night I received an email saying I would be getting a £100 refund and with the email header: "Confirmation of refund for your order placed with MoJ-HMCTS Fixed Penalty Office".

If I remember right I must have paid the £100 initial penalty so I'm asking if this has been refunded due to the case having a court day being put into process?

He did also mention the mitigation are on the form and that I should fill that in, so I will be working out that shortly.
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NewJudge
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 13:04
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QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 12:37) *
... so I'm asking if this has been refunded due to the case having a court day being put into process?

Almost certainly

QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 12:37) *
He did also mention the mitigation are on the form and that I should fill that in, so I will be working out that shortly.


Don't work too hard on "mitigation" in the mistaken belief it explains your "exceptional hardship".

Mitigation is factors that reduce the seriousness of the offence itself (of which you do not appear to have any). Your Exceptional Hardship plea will have to be made in person in court. You will asked to give evidence of the hardship you and/or others will suffer as a result of your ban and you will be required to do so after taking an oath or affirmation.
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monkeybrains74
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 16:59
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 13:04) *
QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 12:37) *
... so I'm asking if this has been refunded due to the case having a court day being put into process?

Almost certainly

QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 12:37) *
He did also mention the mitigation are on the form and that I should fill that in, so I will be working out that shortly.


Don't work too hard on "mitigation" in the mistaken belief it explains your "exceptional hardship".

Mitigation is factors that reduce the seriousness of the offence itself (of which you do not appear to have any). Your Exceptional Hardship plea will have to be made in person in court. You will asked to give evidence of the hardship you and/or others will suffer as a result of your ban and you will be required to do so after taking an oath or affirmation.


Thank you for your reply.

To be honest, I'm expecting 6 months even though there are the below points which as put to me already, don't matter to the court.

I just wanted to confirm that £100 is a refund due to the forward process of the court summons.

Points which I'm on the understanding aren't going to change the court's decision = both hardship and mitigation but only possible reasons that could be used for appeal

I work for myself and have to take mail to the sorting office, along with pick up stock.
Up until a few years ago, this road was a 40 limit.
I was going at a speed which felt right on that road and the same speed as other users. It's a double lane akin to a dual carriage way with central reservation, where there are no residential buildings but admittedly there is before (where I was doing 30).
It is going down hill, towards a bend so speed crept up and don't like looking at the speedo in circumstances like this as dangerous.
It was dry and clear visibility
If it was around 5 days later, I would have 6 points on my license due to 3 coming off, so then there would have been no question of a totting up ban.
It was 34 in a 30 and understand if it had been 33, I would have been okay. A poiliceman with a radar gun recorded this.

Again, I am aware none of the above count for anything so will go to court in person and see what they say but expecting a 6 month ban.
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southpaw82
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:01
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Only your first point is relevant to a hardship plea.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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AntonyMMM
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:05
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QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 16:59) *
I work for myself and have to take mail to the sorting office, along with pick up stock.
Up until a few years ago, this road was a 40 limit.
I was going at a speed which felt right on that road and the same speed as other users. It's a double lane akin to a dual carriage way with central reservation, where there are no residential buildings but admittedly there is before (where I was doing 30).
It is going down hill, towards a bend so speed crept up and don't like looking at the speedo in circumstances like this as dangerous.
It was dry and clear visibility
If it was around 5 days later, I would have 6 points on my license due to 3 coming off, so then there would have been no question of a totting up ban.
It was 34 in a 30 and understand if it had been 33, I would have been okay. A poiliceman with a radar gun recorded this.


Again, I am aware none of the above count for anything so will go to court in person and see what they say but expecting a 6 month ban.


Only your first point is remotely relevant for a hardship plea - and a very weak one. You need to find things that are exceptional to reduce or avoid a ban altogether. Impact on other people always counts higher than just what affects you.

The rest of your points relate to the speeding offence - that will be 3 points whatever you say about it, so forget those.

This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:06
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The Rookie
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:06
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There is a clue in the name of ‘exceptional hardship’ that is hardship you would suffer as a result of a rotting ban. The circumstances of this (or any of the other offences that make up the 12 points) is of no relevance at all.

As SP says only your first point you’ve made related to hardship, the others may refer to your feeling of ‘hard done by’ but hardship it is not.


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monkeybrains74
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:32
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Yes, that's why I'm expecting a ban.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:42
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Well why not actually try on your hardship plea?


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monkeybrains74
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:14
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:42) *
Well why not actually try on your hardship plea?


I will do that but as pointed out, it's not a very strong case.

There's also a couple of solicitors local to me I'm thinking of contacting to see if anything else can be done, including the hardship reasons but also in case there's any technicality on how/where the speed was recorded, as they will be familiar with that stretch of road.




I don't understand what the mitigating circumstances would be for, if not for what I've put.

Is it if someone's in an emergency or similar?
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The Rookie
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:20
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A solicitor can’t create hardship, you either have a case or not, if you don’t I wouldn’t waste your money.


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monkeybrains74
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:23
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:20) *
A solicitor can’t create hardship, you either have a case or not, if you don’t I wouldn’t waste your money.


Okay, thanks.

Is there a way to find out if I have a hardship case? or is just a case of finding out on the day?

And am I right in it being the best option to go in person?

I also don't understand the point of the mitigation field on the form. If my points aren't relevant, what are?
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NewJudge
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:28
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There are not too many mitigating circumstances for speeding.

Unless you can pay to instruct an expert, attempting to gain an acquittal because of flaws in the speed measurement is likely to prove fruitless. All your latest offence boils down to is that you misunderstood the prevailing limit. An expert will be hard pushed to show that the measurement was 5mph or more out.

Even if you believe you will suffer exceptional hardship paying a solicitor to put your case forward is unlikely to help. You will have to tell the court in your own words what the ban will mean to you. Beware of solicitors that build up your hopes. Remember, they get paid, win or lose. What will being unable to drive mean for you and/or others apart from you having to get your stuff to the sorting office? If nothing else then I believe you are on a sticky wicket.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 19:04
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southpaw82
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:56
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QUOTE (monkeybrains74 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:23) *
I also don't understand the point of the mitigation field on the form. If my points aren't relevant, what are?

Mitigation is trying to reduce the sentence for the offence. You won’t mitigate much in a speeding case. It is not the same as pleading exceptional hardship. By law, exceptional hardship cannot include arguments that seek to make the offences for which you have received points less serious (i.e. mitigation of those offences).


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monkeybrains74
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:59
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 18:28) *
There are not too many mitigating circumstances for speeding.

Unless you can pay to instruct an expert, attempting to gain an acquittal because of flaws in the speed measurement is likely to prove fruitless. All your latest offence boils down to is that you misunderstood the prevailing limit. An expert will be hard pushed to show that the measurement was 5mph or more out.

Unless you will suffer exceptional hardship paying a solicitor to put your case forward is unlikely to help. What will being unable to drive mean for you and/or others apart from you having to get your stuff to the sorting office? If nothing else then I believe you are on a sticky wicket.


Okay, thank you.

I'll have to accept the ban as it's not really going to affect family members in a sense that the court would change their mind and the only real hardship is getting to the sorting office and picking up stock which will be a hassle.



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