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Defending ones self
johnnymac
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 15:10
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Hi all.
I’m due in court soon for a speeding offence which to be honest doesn’t and shouldn’t stack up in court. I have confirmed as much by getting a law firm to go through all related documentation to the alleged offence. They agree that my defence is sound.
However They want several thousand to represent me in court which is outside of my affordability. They’ve advised that I shouldn’t go it alone in court because they say that I won’t be able to defend against legal arguments if they’re raised.
Fair enough. However, I‘ve been going through the pages on here and Following the links on the left of the home page:’Law Reality — In Court’ the advise is that “There’s little point in getting a solicitor to act for you, particularly if you’re confident to speak for yourself”.
I’d like to go this route but am thinking on what my solicitor has warned of (defending against legal argument).
In terms of trying to find affordable representation would the court’s duty solicitor be of any use? I understand they’re free but only available on the day of court. Otherwise does anyone have knowledge of any organisations which specialise in driving cases but that don’t charge an arm and a leg for their service?

Thanks
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post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 15:10
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peterguk
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 15:23
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What's the nature of your defence?


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AntonyMMM
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 15:26
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A duty solicitor is not there to defend you in a NG trial.

Law firms that are hoping you will spend a lot of money employing them will often tell you that your defence is sound. The advice given frequently on here is that you should look for a motoring specialist to help you, but such solicitors are not cheap.

Without any indication of what your defence is, how technical or based on legal argument it may be, it is impossible to give much useful advice.

This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 15:39
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Jlc
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 15:36
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 16:26) *
Without any indication of what your defence is, how technical or based on legal argument it may be, it is impossible to give much useful advice.

^ This.

We need more details...


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Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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johnnymac
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:07
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Thanks fellas. I know that you generally like to know the nature of the offence etc but I didn’t include details since i’ve paid for professional advice already so am not here to discuss further.
Just wanted to know whether the duty solicitor could have been of use which looks like it’s a no and whether anyone has any knowledge of any organisations that specialise in driving cases that aren’t really expensive which I think so far is a “yes but they’re not cheap”.
Anyone else care to chime in?
What about citizens advice bureau?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:09
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CAB aren’t going to help, no.

You either pay, or DIY, those are your options.

As fighting and losing can cost you dear, I’d really want to check you actually have a defence before giving any advice that could make things worse for you.


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southpaw82
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:10
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QUOTE (johnnymac @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:07) *
Thanks fellas. I know that you generally like to know the nature of the offence etc but I didn’t include details since i’ve paid for professional advice already so am not here to discuss further.


Can’t really help you then.

QUOTE
What about citizens advice bureau?

Are not lawyers.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:34
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QUOTE (johnnymac @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:07) *
... since i’ve paid for professional advice already so am not here to discuss further.

Are you under a NDA?


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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johnnymac
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:42
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@The Rookie. yeah, sounds about right regarding my options. Sadly the cost of bringing my team to court is cost prohibitive especially when compared to even the maximum penalty for my alleged offence.

Thanks again.
If I can remember i’ll put up details of how things go down on my court date here.
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NewJudge
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:43
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QUOTE (johnnymac @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:07) *
Just wanted to know whether the duty solicitor could have been of use which looks like it’s a no

The duty solicitor scheme would never have helped you to defend a matter at trial.

At present (following changes a few years ago) the duty solicitor will only advise a defendant on his first appearance and only then if he faces an allegation of an offence that carries a custodial sentence.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:44
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peterguk
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:47
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QUOTE (johnnymac @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:07) *
so am not here to discuss further.

Why not?


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johnnymac
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:54
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Thanks for the clarification NewJudge. I had only heard about a duty solicitor through the forum and didn’t know what their role was.
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Redivi
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:59
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:09) *
CAB aren’t going to help, no.

You either pay, or DIY, those are your options.

As fighting and losing can cost you dear, I’d really want to check you actually have a defence before giving any advice that could make things worse for you.

Fighting and winning will cost you dear as well

My understanding is that your costs would only be refunded at the Legal Aid rate, not the rate you paid
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NewJudge
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 19:04
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You need to be a bit careful:
QUOTE (johnnymac @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 16:10) *
They want several thousand to represent me in court...

and then:
QUOTE (johnnymac @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 16:10) *
They agree that my defence is sound.

The late Mandy-Rice Davies might well say "Well (giggle) they would, wouldn’t they?"

If you defend yourself and are unsuccessful it will cost you several hundred pounds in an undiscounted fine but most importantly prosecution costs. If you post the basis of your NG plea on here you may receive some ideas about whether it is viable from people who will not charge you several thousand pounds.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 19:30
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I’ve never told a client they have a good case when they don’t. In fact, I’ve lost clients because I told them the truth rather than what they wanted to hear. Is there any evidence lying to clients is widespread or is it just apocryphal?

By the way, giving advice then having the client bottle it when asking for a few grand up front for a court brief isn’t unusual. There’s an obligation to give the client an indication of fees if possible.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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NewJudge
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 20:31
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I wouldn't suggest lying to clients is widespread and in any case that's far too strong a term. But I would suggest that some organisations are a little economical with the truth when it comes to assessing their potential clients chances of success. I'm pretty sure there have been examples on this forum of posters being given over optimistic advice when fees of £,000s are mentioned, only to find when they provide the details that their "cast iron" defence is more like a bar of chocolate on a warm day. My main point is that although the OP, it seems, has decided not to engage those who advised him, he still intends to launch a defence based on their advice without, perhaps, getting a second opinion. This may still cost him more than it needs to.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 20:53
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I can’t see a reason not to share your defence and get an opinion, along with dos and don’ts to get the best chance of success, but it’s your call. Good luck.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Logician
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 21:36
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As a motoring specialist Bobby Bell has a very good reputation here, and will agree a fixed fee with you in advance. He might well be cheaper than the fees you have been quoted.


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johnnymac
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 08:38
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Listening/reading all of your replies.
I haven't yet decided which route to take yet as I am awaiting the police report after which I can make an informed decision as to whether to proceed with legal assistance.
After realising that any advice I take before hand could well be moot as per NewJudge's point "...only to find when they provide the details that their "cast iron" defence is more like a bar of chocolate on a warm day".

Cheers all.
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notmeatloaf
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 09:56
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Without making assumptions it would be quite reasonable for a law firm to say they have a reasonable chance when you may not have the same self representing. If, as you imply, your defence is more a technical one then it is often necessary to understand several different pieces of legislation and how they relate, relevant case law plus any curve balls the CPS throw on the day.

They will also have a copy of Wilkinsons for anything they don't know.

No matter how much you prep in advance it is very difficult to match an experienced motoring solicitor who knows these things like the back of their hand.

If you ask a builder whether you can build an extension they will likely say yes but that doesn't mean you'll be able to do it because there is a B&Q nearby.

If not on here it would be highly advisable to get someone with experience to thrash out your argument because otherwise you will be doing it with the COS and an expensive bill if there are any holes.
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