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Whether to send evidence or not
rk001
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 11:08
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Hi. I'm fighting a private charge on behalf of my sister for a bpa member operated car park overstay. Sadly she has already written to the car park company and identified herself as the driver. I'm now trying to appeal to POPLA for her following their rejection of her appeal having read through the BPA guidance.

The company has claimed a charge based on an overstay of a 2 hour parking the timings for which are ANPR entry and exit which show a total period of 2 hours 13 minutes. Now I know about the grace periods, so that would not be a problem but here's the tricky bit.

She paid an amount exceeding the required amount for the two hours, but not enough for the next time tariff of 4 hours (thinking this would cover her if she was late - she isn't the brightest tool in the box). Using the time that the ticket was issued to the exit time, there is an overstay of 11.5 minutes, which exceeds the minimum exit grace period, assuming that the ANPR time is the same as the ticket machine time.

Finally, only a small portion of the car park is within the postcode that is stated on the PCN as being the location where the infringement is alleged (I have access to a map tool that shows individual postcode boundaries). The entrance is a few meters outside the postcode as well and she was parked in an area of the car park outside the postcode.

So my questions are:
1. Should she refer to the parking ticket as evidence that she paid, bearing in mind that she has slightly exceeded the exit time period, or should she not submit the ticket as evidence and argue against the PCN based on entry and exit times?

2. Would the fact that she paid more than was required be worth mentioning? Is it arguable that the company has been paid pro rata for the time (pro rata, the extra amount paid covers the total time between entry and exit).

3. Can the postcode location be successfully argued as an appeal point do you think on the basis that they gave the wrong location, technically?

Thanks in advance for any opinions.
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post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 11:08
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Redivi
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 11:20
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Produce the ticket that shows that she paid and argue that the grace period was insufficient

POPLA doesn't buy the pro-rata argument but use it anyway

Throw in poor signs that fail to meet the BPA Code of Practice
Also require that the company produces the contract that confirms its authority in accordance with the Code of Practice Paras 7.2 and 7.3

This will inform the company that it will be hard work to recover a payment, even if the POPLA appeal fails
It might persuade them not to contest the appeal
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Jlc
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 11:33
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Which company is this?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 11:52
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If she's already admitted being the driver, POFA will not be relevant and there would be no point in disputing the location. The precise location being specified on the ticket is not always relevant, as it can be established through the introduction of evidence.

--Churchmouse
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rk001
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 12:59
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Thanks for the advice everyone. Much appreciated. The company is parking Eye.

Church mouse, the location was on the PCN. From what I understand, if the information on that is incorrect then the PCN is invalid, though I'm happy to be corrected. A technicality I know, but still worth pursuing this point?
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southpaw82
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 13:37
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QUOTE (rk001 @ Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 12:59) *
Thanks for the advice everyone. Much appreciated. The company is parking Eye.

Church mouse, the location was on the PCN. From what I understand, if the information on that is incorrect then the PCN is invalid, though I'm happy to be corrected. A technicality I know, but still worth pursuing this point?

That may be the case in respect of a proper penalty charge notice issued by the council but this is not a statutory regime.


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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 14:44
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The PCN is not "INVALID", however if they fail to specify the relevant location, then it cannot meet the reuqirements of POFA to hold the keeper liable, when they are unaware of who teh driver is
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 15:02
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 14:44) *
The PCN is not "INVALID", however if they fail to specify the relevant location, then it cannot meet the reuqirements of POFA to hold the keeper liable, when they are unaware of who teh driver is

"Cannot", assuming a judge agrees that the information they did provide is insufficient to comply with the POFA "location" requirement. Whether a judge would agree would likely depend on how erroneous the description was. It's not a "get-out-of-gaol-free" card, but it could be relevant in court. I doubt POPLA would buy it, but you never know with them these days...

--Churchmouse
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rk001
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 15:42
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Hmm, something to consider then. Thanks again. A couple of other things I've noticed just now. ..

On the reverse of the rejection they advise on how to appeal to POPLA. They suggest online, but also say that an appeal can be done by post, in which case to write to them for a form. Now I can't see a requirement to do this for an appeal, which seems to me to be a sneaky way of trying to use up appeal time and also give them a heads up that an appeal is being made. Is this contestable do you think by placing an unnecessary and onerous process?

They also say that if you have already paid the reduced charge to them and an appeal has been made to POPLA which is unsuccessful, then the charge will increase to the full amount and will be payable. I know the practice guide says it's either pay up or appeal, but not both, so this to me seems wrong. Again, is it something that can be used?
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Jlc
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 15:55
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Neither of those help you to cancel the ticket/win appeal.

If you appeal to POPLA they have to take time to respond and they also incur a charge - which is why the reduced rate goes.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 16:00
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QUOTE
...a charge based on an overstay of a 2 hour parking the timings for which are ANPR entry and exit which show a total period of 2 hours 13 minutes.


Retail Park? Hotel? Cinema? Beach?

NEVER try POPLA before firstly exhausting the retailer/landowner complaint.

I really mean 'exhausting' (Manager, and then the Head Office if it's a national chain) as that's a dead easy way to get a PE PCN cancelled, and can't be done after POPLA.
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rk001
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 16:20
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School run mum, thanks for that but already been down that route and they're not interested sadly.

Jlc, the reason I mentioned the first point is that the code requires it to be specifically mentioned that's its either appeal or pay. PE aren't doing this so have breached the code, surely a breach of the code invalidates their right to collect on a PCN? The point is that you can't, according to the code, pay AND appeal, it's one or the other and PE seem to be suggesting otherwise.

I think the second point is just sneaky. The code requires them to tell a motorist how to appeal to POPLA, and does not require victims to write to PE to get a template which takes time. Surely this is underhand?

Again, happy to be corrected.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 19:10
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QUOTE (rk001 @ Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 16:20) *
surely a breach of the code invalidates their right to collect on a PCN?

Why? They’re not collecting on a PCN they’re (potentially) suing for a breach of contract (normally). You seem confused with the council PCN process.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 02:00
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QUOTE (rk001 @ Fri, 18 Jan 2019 - 15:42) *
Hmm, something to consider then. Thanks again. A couple of other things I've noticed just now. ..

On the reverse of the rejection they advise on how to appeal to POPLA. They suggest online, but also say that an appeal can be done by post, in which case to write to them for a form. Now I can't see a requirement to do this for an appeal, which seems to me to be a sneaky way of trying to use up appeal time and also give them a heads up that an appeal is being made. Is this contestable do you think by placing an unnecessary and onerous process?

They also say that if you have already paid the reduced charge to them and an appeal has been made to POPLA which is unsuccessful, then the charge will increase to the full amount and will be payable. I know the practice guide says it's either pay up or appeal, but not both, so this to me seems wrong. Again, is it something that can be used?


The consensus of opinion here is that neither of those help you to cancel the ticket/win appeal.

When you say you already tried complaining, did you escalate it and try the retail park owners et al, like I said (I didn't just mean one complaint). Can't stress this enough:

QUOTE
NEVER try POPLA before firstly exhausting the retailer/landowner complaint.

I really mean 'exhausting' (Manager, and then the Head Office if it's a national chain) as that's a dead easy way to get a PE PCN cancelled, and can't be done after POPLA.


You cannot complain after trying POPLA, so think whether you have tried every avenue, every Manager. If you lose at POPLA you then have no avenues.
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rk001
post Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 08:36
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Well, I sent the appeal and put in everything I mentioned as well as a couple of nitpicking noncompliance with the code I could find.

Got an email from Popla advising that Parking Eye do not wish to contest the appeal. I'd love to think all the points I raised put them off but suspect the lack of grace period given did the trick.

Thanks again for everyone's input.
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