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Ticket machine not working, Station ticket machine not working
HappyHarry
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 00:09
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I tried to pay for parking at Redhill station, which has ANPR. The machine rejected my coins. I tried to pay by debit card. I input my details, the machine beeped then showed a message that said “call in progress”. Not sure if I’d paid, I input my details again. The same thing happened again. There was an option to pay by phone, but I didn’t have my mobile with me.

15 days later, I received a penalty notice by post from Indigo Park Solutions. I emailed my explanation which was rejected. I intend to appeal, their email says:
“You have now reached the end of the internal appeals procedure. Should you remain dissatisfied with this decision, you may further your appeal to an independent appeals service, ITAL Group Limited, within 28 days of this notice of rejection, details of which are available at www.asparking.co.uk.”

It seems to me from some of the threads that machines being out of order is no excuse for not paying but that a 14 day window to send me the notice has been missed. Is this the best route for me to follow?

Thank you in advance for any advice you post.


--------------------
“Nobody leaves their house because they want to go and do some parking; parking is simply a means to an end, and it should be as easy as possible.” Rishi Sunak, MP
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post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 00:09
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Redivi
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 03:23
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What EXACTLY has the notice been issued for - Failure to Pay or Failure to Display ?

Failure to Display isn't a Byelaw offence

This looks like an attempt by Indigo to avoid using its trade association's appeal service POPLA which has just started dealing with penalty cases
The problem for Indigo is that it costs about £30 and its timescales and rules enable motorists to drag out the process past six months when prosecutions under the Railway Byelaws will no longer be possible
ITAL enforces railway penalty tickets and also offers appeals but this normally concerns non-payment of travel and parking appeals are unique to Indigo

The Indigo-ITAL website was only registered in October and its ownership is hidden
ITAL is, however, a member of the British Parking Association

My initial thought is to complain to the British Parking Association that Indigo is directing you to ITAL as an independent appeal service, not POPLA
The site is new and only refers to Indigo
You are therefore concerned regarding its expertise and independence

You want the BPA to investigate what appears to be a breach of its Code of Practice

At best Indigo will be in breach of its Code of Practice and told to provide a POPLA code
At worst, the BPA will say that ITAL is qualified but, if by this time the code has expired, it will be reasonable to request a new one

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ostell
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 09:04
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Have you identified the driver, simple yes or not?

If not then the 15 days is relevant even though POFA does not apply on byelaw land.

Ws it really a PENALTY Notice
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Redivi
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 09:33
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If it's Indigo and a railway station it almost certainly will be

ITAL is the Independent Transport Associates Ltd and deals specifically with railway penalties although it looks like it has more experience with fare evasion and parking is a new venture
https://www.ital-uk.com/

I cannot see how a company whose business is enforcement and revenue protection is any more independent as an appeals service than ZZPS, Indigo's usual service provider

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HappyHarry
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 14:30
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Thank you for your responses.

The notice is issued for “failing to obtain a valid ticket or voucher”.
It is a “penalty notice by post notice to owner”.

I don’t believe I have identified the driver, but I did say “I tried to pay for parking by both coins and debit card”.

This post has been edited by HappyHarry: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 14:31


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“Nobody leaves their house because they want to go and do some parking; parking is simply a means to an end, and it should be as easy as possible.” Rishi Sunak, MP
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Jlc
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 14:57
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That pronoun is sufficient to identify the driver.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 15:59
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Indeed, its pretty obviousl who was likely to have driven, especially if there are no other occupants in the vehicle.
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Redivi
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 16:02
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According to another thread, POPLA will be available after ITAL

You can therefore make the appeal to IAL at about Day 28

If a POPLA code is provided, it will be fairly easy to time out a prosecution
If not, a complaint to the BPA will be in order

A couple of dates would be useful :

Date of parking event
Date of appeal
Date of rejection

This post has been edited by Redivi: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 16:04
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HappyHarry
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 16:17
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Thank you all. I have contacted the British Parking Association saying I am concerned that Indigo are not offering an independent appeals route. I’ve asked them to investigate what appears to be a breach of their Code of Practice.

This post has been edited by HappyHarry: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 16:17


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“Nobody leaves their house because they want to go and do some parking; parking is simply a means to an end, and it should be as easy as possible.” Rishi Sunak, MP
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SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 01:45
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Fine, but don't miss this date:

QUOTE
Should you remain dissatisfied with this decision, you may further your appeal to an independent appeals service, ITAL Group Limited, within 28 days of this notice of rejection,


And do not talk about who the driver or owner are, at any stage now. You are the keeper.
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Gary Bloke
post Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 00:02
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Ostell states that "POFA does not apply on Byelaws land." Actually the POFA does apply except for Schedule 4, which is the part concerning keeper liability.

Also...how can ITAL claim to be independent when the Indigo logo is plastered all over their website???
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The Rookie
post Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 15:37
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Agreed, but if they insist on helping out by adding at least a 5 week delay in the process, that would be fine by me!


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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Gary Bloke
post Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 17:05
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Hi Redivi,
Please can you provide details of this other thread?
Thanks
Gary

"According to another thread, POPLA will be available after ITAL"
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HappyHarry
post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 12:16
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I re-read the appeal rejection I was sent by Indigo and emailed saying: “Your email says, as the driver, it is your responsibility to always ensure you are fully aware and adhere to the terms and conditions when parking on private land. Whilst we did try to buy a ticket for the car park, from the only machine available, which was not working, I was not the driver. I was the passenger in the vehicle on 25 November. I am not therefore liable for the costs. There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.”

They have responded back and said “As this is a penalty notice issued on railway assets, the owner will remain liable”.

Is this right? My next course of action is the formal appeal to ITAL.

Thank you.


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“Nobody leaves their house because they want to go and do some parking; parking is simply a means to an end, and it should be as easy as possible.” Rishi Sunak, MP
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Redivi
post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 12:40
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Byelaw 14 actually says that the owner MAY be liable

There's also no legislation that enforces the penalty notices
Byelaw 24, that deals with enforcement, only allows prosecution of the person that committed the offence, not the owner of the vehicle

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HappyHarry
post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 16:48
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Thank you Redivi. Realistically, is it worth my while appealing this penalty notice which was received by post?

The key dates are:
Date of parking event - 25 November 2018
Penalty notice received - 10 December 2018 (15 days after event)
Date of appeal - 11 December
Date of rejection - 14 December

The event was at a railway station. The driver tried to pay, the only available ticket machine was not working.
It was dark and not possible to see small print about what to do if the machine was broken. That seems like one angle for an appeal.

Is there also POFA angle? I’m sorry, I’m unclear what this means “POFA does apply except for Schedule 4, which is the part concerning keeper liability”.


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“Nobody leaves their house because they want to go and do some parking; parking is simply a means to an end, and it should be as easy as possible.” Rishi Sunak, MP
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Redivi
post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 17:22
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Realistically, is it worth my while appealing this penalty notice which was received by post?

Who cares ?

The objective of the exercise isn't to win an appeal
It's to drag the process out for six months until it's too late for a prosecution

You've thrown away one of those months by appealing the Penalty Notice as soon as it arrived

POFA is the Protection of Freedoms Act
It covers a host of subjects such as retaining fingerprint and DNA records, children's biometric data, powers of surveillance and forced entry
It applies everywhere hence Gary Bloke's comment

Schedule 4 regarding parking is a small part of the legislation and gives operators the right to recover payment from keepers if they didn't know who was driving
It also banned clamping and the new right of recovery was compensation for the industry

It doesn't apply at railway stations where parking is controlled by byelaws

Scotland dealt with the rogue clamping industry by simply calling it extortion

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Gary Bloke
post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 20:53
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Schedule 4 of POFA deals with keeper liability but it does not cover clamping. Clamping is covered by a separate part of the Act, section 54, which applies everywhere. That is why lawful authority for clamping is required everywhere, while keeper liability can apply only where Schedule 4 applies, ie only on "relevant land".

HappyHarry, you should complain to the BPA because it appears Indigo and ZZPS are in breach of the AOS Code of Practice. The CoP says that AOS members must offer a second stage appeal via POPLA. By offering only ITAL, they are in breach.

The new guidelines on the POPLA website state that ANPR tickets must be issued at latest in 14 days from the day after the alleged incident. In your case they took 15 days, which means the ticket was not correctly issued. A slam dunk win at POPLA. So you need to get a POPLA reference from ZZPS / Indigo.

The BPA website provides a web form where you can enter complaints about AOS members.

This post has been edited by Gary Bloke: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 21:00
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cabbyman
post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 21:01
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But.....Once you get a POPLA code, don't send your appeal until close to the deadline. POPLA frequently do the unexpected. You still need to ensure a timeout at 6 months for the byelaws aspect of the case.

Gary Bloke: Do we need to complain about ITAL? As mentioned previously, the introduction of a further stage makes it easier to get to a timeout, doesn't it?


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Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
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Gary Bloke
post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 21:07
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Is ITAL just an extra stage or is it replacing POPLA? I think it's the latter. That is why I asked for clarification from Redivi.

This post has been edited by Gary Bloke: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 21:08
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