Newham PCN, newham pcn code 92 |
Newham PCN, newham pcn code 92 |
Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 17:08
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 17 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,985 |
Hello, everyone! Today I took a fine in Madge Gill Way Car Park from East Ham with the code 92 (parked causing an obstruction). The story is as follows:
I have finished my shift for today and I drove in this car park around 14:10 with the thought of eating something at Aunt Sallys Cafe. 10-15 minutes passed and I could not find a parking spot. There were cars coming in, but luckier than me because as soon as they got inside, somebody near them left. Annoyed and hungry because I did not eat anything until that time, I parked the car close to the wall (see picture here: https://imgur.com/a/057rg4i ), but there were no white lines on the ground. There were two more parked cars just like me. I wanted to check if they took the fine. I walked close to their windscreen, no PCN and the parking ticket displayed on board. Seeing that they are ok, I thought everything would be fine so I paid for the parking ticket and I left. when I came back, I had the surprise to find the "yellow pain" on my windscreen. The other two cars I was telling you about were not there anymore, so I do not know if they also got a PCN or not. Is there any chance to win this challenge? Many thanks! |
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Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 17:08
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Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 17:10
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Post the council photos, they will be on the council website. Use imgur.com to host the images if you run out of space.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 19:45
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 17 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,985 |
Post the council photos, they will be on the council website. Use imgur.com to host the images if you run out of space. So far the pictures are not available (see https://imgur.com/a/KnyJ4yX and https://imgur.com/a/SLAGIYl). I will wait 3 working days to see if there is an update on the website. This post has been edited by pepipoo_newbie: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 19:46 |
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 09:33
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 17 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,985 |
Here we go: https://imgur.com/a/iVHyqtG
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 09:56
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#5
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
I would have expected the contravention to be parking outside a marked bay as per the noticeboard so we will need to consider the obstruction issue.
Was the vehicle in a position where it caused difficulties for say delivery lorries to pass or perform any sort of turn? Is obstruction actually specified in the off street parking places order? Mick |
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 10:38
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 17 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,985 |
I would have expected the contravention to be parking outside a marked bay as per the noticeboard so we will need to consider the obstruction issue. Was the vehicle in a position where it caused difficulties for say delivery lorries to pass or perform any sort of turn? Is obstruction actually specified in the off street parking places order? Mick I do not think there is enough space for a delivery lorry to enter this car park, I have never seen one there, so delivery lorries might be prohibited because they would cause an obstruction and would be very difficult to exit the car park, but still, no concrete information found about this. I read the London Borough of Newham Parking Policy and Procedures but I cannot find where the obstruction is defined in the off-street parking. The car was not in a position where it caused difficulties for any other car to pass or perform any sort of turn. It was not parked in a yellow box or disabled parking spot and there was no (yellow, red) line near the wall. On the right opposite side, I had reverse parked cars just like the car parked behind me inside a marked bay. Thank you, Mick! |
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 11:31
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Seems little doubt that you were outside a marked bay.
And if that was the contravention, little argument. But obstruction ?? That isn't on the T&C board, as MMV says may not even be within the Parking Order and is subjective anyway. Parked so another car cannot get out, blocking a vehicle or pedestrian route, that is obstruction. Personally I would challenge on I was not causing any obstruction nor do the CEO photos show that any took place. Should council disagree, they must specify what I was obstructing and provide the relevant parking place order that shows that obstruction is a contravention that can be enforced. No doubt Newham will say you were outside a marked bay therefore caused an obstruction but one does not follow the other, decriminalised orders are usually put together to focus on black and white contraventions, Not Paying, Not in a Marked Bay, Overstaying etc and don't use subjective contraventions, too difficult to argue. |
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 11:45
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
To put this into context, an obstruction is where another vehicle cannot get in or out. If it is possible to manuvre round a vehicle, even if it's tricky, that is not an obstruction.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:48
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I think the council will say that the area was left clear of bays because of the cut in caused by the bus stop layby. There photos do not support though that an obstruction is caused
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Madge+G...#33;4d0.0512931 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:01
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 17 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,985 |
https://imgur.com/a/a7QYNcN
My car was parked exactly where is the blue Mercedes (check the red arrow), which, as we can see, doesn't have a PCN on the windscreen. There is also a height restriction, so a delivery lorry definitely could not drive inside. So, these being said, is it worth appealing? How would a formal challenge look like for this situation? Many thanks! |
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:36
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I would make it very simple.
--------- Dear sir or madam, Having consulted the CEO's pictures it is clear there is no evidence whatsoever that my vehicle was causing an obstruction, or indeed that anyone was obstructed. In light of this I trust the PCN will be cancelled. This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:36 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:50
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
I would make it very simple. --------- Dear sir or madam, Having consulted the CEO's pictures it is clear there is no evidence whatsoever that my vehicle was causing an obstruction, or indeed that anyone was obstructed. In light of this I trust the PCN will be cancelled. That is about my take on it, though temped to ask for reasoning if they reject and the relevant parking place order. |
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Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 22:37
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,065 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
I accept that I was parked outside of the marked bays and for this I apologise.
I can also see that this is a contravention of the Terms and Conditions of use displayed on the noticeboard. However, this is not the alleged contravention. Obstruction is neither referred to on the noticeboard nor anything which may be determined objectively. In addition, as no egress or access was blocked or the circulatory function of the car park affected in any way then in my opinion there has been no obstruction. If the authority claim that obstruction was caused then they are obliged to prove this, simply stating that I parked outside of marked bays being totally insufficient for this purpose. Don't fudge the marked bays. You parked incorrectly. State it, apologise and move on: there's nothing they could do about it, so admit it, hopefully to stop them waffling on about this aspect. |
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Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 21:41
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 17 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,985 |
I will appeal it and I will come back with their answer, hopefully, the PCN will be cancelled.
I wish to express my sincere thanks to everyone who replied to this topic. |
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 11:43
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 17 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,985 |
QUOTE Thank you for your correspondence received on 27/11/2018 regarding the above penalty charge notice (PCN). Your comments and the notes of the civil enforcement officer (CEO) have now been considered. Your vehicle was observed parked causing an obstruction. Parking is restricted at the above location Monday to Saturday from 08:00 till 18:00. I appreciate you may feel your vehicle parked outside of a clearly marked bay did not cause an obstruction-however, the rules are quite clear and are displayed on the large board inside the car park. Point 3 states that it is an offence to park other than wholly within a marked bay. Any vehicle parked behind you in a bay and in bays near you may have found it difficult to pass as your vehicle was causing a clear obstruction. Any vehicle medium sized would have found it difficult to pass your vehicle and damaged may have been caused. Should an emergency vehicle need to drive past your parked vehicle, they too would have struggled. Equipment they had may not have reached where it needed to go. These are just some of the reasons why parking outside of a clearly marked bay isn't permitted. When the car park is full, you need to find alternative parking. You cannot park outside of a marked bay. Obtaining a pay and display ticket or making a pay by phone payment wouldn't prevent you from receiving a PCN. Please adhere to the signs and lines in place. You can view photographic evidence of your case online at www.newham.gov.uk. Click 'Pay It', click 'Parking Penalty Charge Notice', enter the penalty charge notice number and the vehicle registration number then click on the 'continue' button. Taking all the above into consideration, no reason has been found to cancel the penalty. The discounted payment of £65.00 will be accepted in full and final settlement if paid not later than the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service of this letter. If payment is not received within this time, the full penalty amount of £130.00 will become payable. Payment should not be made if you wish to take this matter further, as payment may be regarded as an acceptance of liability and may close the case. If payment is not received as detailed, I shall assume that you wish to pursue the matter and shall arrange for a notice to owner to be sent after the period of 14 days, to the registered keeper of the vehicle so that formal representations may be made. Should these be rejected, the registered keeper of the vehicle will then be offered the opportunity to appeal to the parking Adjudicator. I should point out that, should you decide to take this course of action, after the discount period has expired, you will forfeit the right to pay the Penalty Charge at the lower rate and the full charge of £130.00 will be due. If you are not the registered keeper of the vehicle e.g. the vehicle is a company or lease/hire vehicle, or being used with the owner's consent, I suggest you advise the keeper that a notice to owner will be issued. So ... what's to be done now? |
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 12:25
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The contravention is "causing an obstruction", not "causing a potential obstruction", I would carry on, as there is no evidence that any actual obstruction was caused. As Newham has indicated, you need to wait for the Notice to Owner to challenge this formally.
This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 12:25 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 12:41
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 17 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,985 |
The contravention is "causing an obstruction", not "causing a potential obstruction", I would carry on, as there is no evidence that any actual obstruction was caused. As Newham has indicated, you need to wait for the Notice to Owner to challenge this formally. The car is not mine, I work for a car hire company and it belongs to them. Does it mean I have to let them know about this PCN and ask them to formally appeal it? |
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 13:01
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The contravention is "causing an obstruction", not "causing a potential obstruction", I would carry on, as there is no evidence that any actual obstruction was caused. As Newham has indicated, you need to wait for the Notice to Owner to challenge this formally. The car is not mine, I work for a car hire company and it belongs to them. Does it mean I have to let them know about this PCN and ask them to formally appeal it? If you are an employee of the company, you can appeal it on behalf of the company. Obviously you will have to arrange for the PCN to be passed to you to deal with, once it is received. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 13:45
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,269 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
The rejection mentions 'parked outside a bay' so many times that it surely confirms the wrong contravention
has been used. Lower level 86 would have worked. -------------------- |
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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 22:21
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 17 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,985 |
Ok, so to get this right. I will have to wait for the notice to be sent to my company, and after to ask them to be passed to me, and in the end to formal appeal it, right?
And do you guys really believe I have a chance to win this? As you said, Newham stated only possibly obstruction that can occur if I park outside a parking bay, but this is not the contravention, even so, to be honest, I am afraid I will lose the appeal again and I will have to pay the full amount of 130GBP. |
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