[NIP Wizard] ATerry Options

[ATerry]

NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: -
Date of the NIP: -
Date you received the NIP: -
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): -
Was the NIP addressed to you? -
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? -
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? -
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons -

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No
- No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 01 Mar 2021 14:41:30 +0000

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[ATerry]

NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2021
Date of the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 32 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Tower Bridge Southbound, London
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - NIP received today, March 1st, dated 3rd February and envelope stamped 4th of February Royal Mail First Class but only arrived today. We have letter boxes in a communal hall way, CCTV would show my wife checking the post every other day. I know I checked it within the last 7 days and it wasn't there. This was delivered along with another letter from the NHS dated Feb 1st so I assume some post has been backlogged due to the pandemic. I plan to fill in the 172 today as my 28 days will be up in 48hours, through no fault of my own. But worth including a letter that states the arrival was late? I know from searching there seems to be differing opinions on whether the police have a burden of proof or arrival or I have to, and frankly going to court over it seems unlikely, Im more hoping a correctly worded letter might encourage them not to continue.

Also if of any worth the second page stated 'the picture printed on this paper is a representation of the photographic evidence of this offence' but was a blank square containing no photo or image.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No
- No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 01 Mar 2021 14:53:27 +0000

[Jlc]

It's your burden to show it didn't arrive on time. But late post is definitely more common during COVID. It might be worth contacting the PO to see if they'll divulge anything.

The driver nomination needs to be responded too - no point in delaying that if you know who was driving. (Although there's an argument the 28 days has just started)

What's the alleged speed? (It's a well known 20mph site monitored by average speed system)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 - 15:10

[ATerry]

I meant to add that I found the RAC letter which I thought looked a fairly useful template - I noticed it was sent to the CC not the officer- I can't find any address details for City Of London Police, and can only assume that the Process Team address at the top of the letter is the one I'm meant to post the letter back to...?

Thanks in advance for any pointers / help.

[AntonyMMM]

You could certainly include a letter, but don't expect them to drop the case.

There will be evidence available that this was posted in time to arrive within the specified 14 days, and it will be for you to convince a court that was not the case. It sounds like you may have some evidence to support that - but you would have to decline any offer of a speed awareness course or FPN and defend the case in court.

[Jlc]

Yes, the address to return the driver nomination...

You can point out the late receipt but the expected response is that they'll say they posted it in time - if you wanted to challenge that would have to be done at court.

[The Rookie]

We have letter boxes in a communal hall way, CCTV would show my wife checking the post every other day. I know I checked it within the last 7 days and it wasn't there. This was delivered along with another letter from the NHS dated Feb 1st so I assume some post has been backlogged due to the pandemic.

Is it possible both went in the wrong box and that person has just found them and reposted them? Does that happen?

Presumably the address on the letter links to your box ONLY?

[ATerry]

Thanks for the input - I figured they probably wouldn't roll over and drop the case, and to be honest going to court seems like a low chance of success. It was 36mph, and despite driving over the bridge numerous times I wouldn't say I remember noticing it was 20 - I can't honestly remember a time when there was no traffic and you could get over 10mph on the bridge. 21:20 is the stated time which I guess is a less busy time than usual... I have no points and have done a speed awareness course but that would have been over 4 years ago. Fine and a course would be bearable, and preferred to points on the license, can't see a court appearance being worth it given the odds or losing and ending up worse off.

I'll include a letter anyway as it seems that that would cause no harm, especially if worded less combatively. I could get into CCTV and such but nothing would be conclusive enough, a parcel was stolen from last month and we discovered the CCTV only covers entry and exit not the actual letter boxes so hard to get detailed evidence.

And yes letters are addressed to our flat, which has a dedicated postbox - not impossible they ended up in another postbox, maybe a postbox of someone who only checked it today and quickly dropped them into the correct postbox - there would be no way of knowing...which I guess is kind of answering the question, no I can't prove definitively that it only arrived today, and even if I could that would be on Royal Mail not the City of London Police.

[BaggieBoy]

Tower Bridge is a well known location, it's been a 20MPH average speed site for years. 36 in 20 is too fast for a course (31 is the top speed). So you are looking at a fixed penalty of £100 and 3 points.

I'll include a letter anyway as it seems that that would cause no harm, especially if worded less combatively.

Actually it might, they may decide to go straight to court (SJPN).

[Jlc]

Tower Bridge is a well known location, it's been a 20MPH average speed site for years. 36 in 20 is too fast for a course (31 is the top speed). So you are looking at a fixed penalty of £100 and 3 points.

Actually, usual point for summons is 35mph so looks like it's going to court anyway.

[NewJudge]

Actually, usual point for summons is 35mph so looks like it's going to court anyway.

And if it does you are looking at probably five points (the band of seriousness covers 31 to 40mph for which the recommended penalty is 4 to 6 points). You will also pay a fine of a week's net income (reduced by a third for a guilty plea), a Victim Surcharge of 10% of the fine (minimum £34) and £85 costs. So if you take home £500 per week (£26k per year) it will cost you around £450 (£333 fine, £34 VS and £85 costs). You may be lucky and be offered a Fixed Penalty but I wouldn't count on it. Most forces adhere quite rigidly to their guidelines.

[The Rookie]

.
And yes letters are addressed to our flat, which has a dedicated postbox - not impossible they ended up in another postbox, maybe a postbox of someone who only checked it today and quickly dropped them into the correct postbox - there would be no way of knowing....

Well you could ask your neighbours, especially the ones who’s box was the more obvious one to use by mistake.

If you have an independent witness to the fact that there wasn’t good service it improves your chances significantly.

[ATerry]

Bloody hell, that seems quite a severe punishment for 36, I get the math but the ratio makes in a 20 seem much more harshly punished than say 80 on a motorway where you would think the risks are actually more severe, remembering my speed awareness course from back in the day.... Im not sure if that makes it more or less tempting to pursue the timing it took for the letter to reach me.

I'll fill in the 172 and send it off just as is for now I guess... pfft, not looking forward to the next letter.

[Jlc]

Bloody hell, that seems quite a severe punishment for 36, I get the math but the ratio makes in a 20 seem much more harshly punished than say 80 on a motorway

The system is not necessarily progressive - getting caught at 31 would see a course, 34 a 3 points/£100 fixed penalty and 35 court as above...

But it's 80% over the limit which does sound worse when put like that.

[NewJudge]

But it's 80% over the limit which does sound worse when put like that.

Which would be the equivalent of doing 126mph on a motorway, so you can see the relative seriousness. In fact that offence would put you firmly into a short ban territory.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 - 18:33

[ATerry]

Well I returned the form stating I was the driver and just included a hand written note to state it arrived today, March 1st, and I've made every effort to return it quickly. The postoffice said even signed for recorded might miss Wednesday which would be the 28 day limit. Fingers crossed that doesn't get added to the mess and have to be resolved - I'll wait and see what comes back and update then. Help appreciated!

[The Rookie]

The police have no interest in pursuing the failing to furnish over a couple of days, they would rather just punish for the original offence.

[ATerry]

I emailed yesterday the address on the letter mentioning the late arrival and today received an email reply stating:

"I have checked the offence and it is fine to return now, will add a note stating that you have only received the notice on 01/03/21"

Yes Im clutching at straws but does this accepting tone of the NIP arriving with me late of any use? Again Im still not sure I understand weather or not the 14 days is definitively proved by the postage mark OR if it would be void should the police accept it arrived after 14 days due to delays in the post. I mean, I bother to send my reply registered and signed for, they didn't...

I know its probably wishful thinking, but in case anyone smarter than me on here goes aha, they've agreed and thats binding....

[The Rookie]

OK.... other than setting your store out, talking to the police isn't relevant.

As long as the notice was posted such that it would be served (land in your box) in time (2 WORKING days later) then that is presumed to have happened.

As such the court would consider that proof in the absence of any other evidence.

However the presumption is rebuttable, that is you can turn up and rebut the assumption it was served in time, the court would then consider whatever evidence you presented (both as a witness and anything else relevant such as the PO admitting delays in your area, plus any other evidence you may be able to muster such as CCTV, other witnesses etc) and decide whether they accepted the rebuttal (and acquit) or not (and convict).

Have a read of Gidden. https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2924.html

[southpaw82]

The police appear to have said that they would not take issue with any response to the s 172 notice being received late, rather than accepting that the NIP was serve out of time.