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2 PCN and Towed charged for missing car in edinburgh, Got 2 PCN and Towed charged for reported missing car
Sunny84
post Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 22:49
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Hello Dear Group members,

First of all I really appreciate that you guys are taking your own time in helping other people on this forum. This is really helpful and very kind of you. I have been reading threads from this forum and so now I am looking for some advise on how to deal with my situation.

So, last Saturday on 10/11/18 at 3:00 pm my wife parked her car on control zone in Edinburgh city center ( parking restricted for Mon-Fri 9:30 to 5:30). She cam back at 3:45 and her car wasn't there. She then looked at the few other streets around from where she actually parked. At 5:00 pm we decided to contact police and report a missing car. Police then checked their system and said it's not been move or lifted by Edinburgh council. So then we decided to registered a complaint for stolen car. I also reported it to our insurance company and they started their procedure with claim. Then on at 7:00 pm in the evening two police office cam to see us regarding the incident and took our statements and said they will check with Edinburgh council and find out if it's been lifted or not.

Since then we have not had any updates from police. No update on 11/11/18 and 12/11/18. On 13/11/18, Tuesday I contacted police in order to get some update around 4 pm and at that time I have been told that its been impounded by council and I have been asked to contact Edinburgh impound. I contacted Edinburgh Impound and they said your car has been lifted today Morning ( Tuesday Morning at 11:00 am ) and it had tickets from Monday and Tuesday , and strange thing is that it was found from another street which is just 5 minutes away from the place where my wife first parked her car. So I contacted police and they said I need to go and check my car in order to see if it's been damaged or any sign of theft. When I went to impound my car was in perfect condition and had no sign of theft. Now When I ask for my car I have been told that I need to pay charges £210 to get my car back ( £150 + £30 +£ 30 ). I contacted police and they said it's now a dispute between me and Edinburgh council and I should contact Edinburgh council to wave off my charges. And police also suggested me that I should get my car out as soon as possible to stop getting any daily charges. So I paid £210 to get our car back and All I am looking for is to appeal against my charges. A representation of removal of my vehicle and parking tickets.

I am thinking that It's very unfair that I have to pay these charges because First , my wife parked a car at different place and it was not under any parking restriction at the time ( free parking during the weekends) . Second how did our car end up on different street and third one is if we are not aware about any fines on our car the how am I going to pay the ticket. so I think all the charges to us are irrelevant and should be refunded.

I am looking for some advise from members from this group on how should I best approach to this situation and raised my representation against council.

Thanks in advanced
Sunny
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post Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 22:49
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stamfordman
post Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 23:10
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First thought is are you sure car wasn't left there.

Best post one of the PCNs. See if any council pics available.

If it had been taken surely it would have been unlocked.


Put pics on https://imgbb.com (create an account there) and post BBcode embed links (see below pic)

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 23:13
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 15 Nov 2018 - 07:45
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Better post the documents you got at the pound too. We need to know what legislation they used to remove in the 1st place.

Need a photo of both PCNs and (if possible) the CEOs photos from the Council website so we can check for a continuous contravention.

Mick
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Sunny84
post Thu, 15 Nov 2018 - 09:27
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Hello ,

I will upload the pictures today , all I have is 2 PCN and a Form from car pound which has been given to me when i picked up the car.

@ Mad Mick V - what is the CEOs photos - I have no idea about this and where can I find that ?

@stamfordam - I am 110% sure that car wasn't left there.

Thanks
Sunny
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stamfordman
post Thu, 15 Nov 2018 - 09:34
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QUOTE (Sunny84 @ Thu, 15 Nov 2018 - 09:27) *
@ Mad Mick V - what is the CEOs photos - I have no idea about this and where can I find that ?


Look on council site - they are the pics taken by the traffic warden. But they often take them down when PCNs are paid.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 15 Nov 2018 - 09:49
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Timing of reporting the theft and subsequent removal suggests that the sequence is genuine and as such that the ground for challenging the PCN of Parked without Owner's Consent can be used and there is evidence.
If the PCN is cancelled, the removal charges etc cannot be levied and must be refunded.
You have to pay them to get the vehicle back BTW, then challenge and hopefully win a refund.

Having said that, there will be the suspicion that the driver simply forgot where the car was and that this led to the sequence.
It has happened.
Ultimately that will come down to any evidence of parking where you thought (P&D ticket ?) or driver credibility with an adjudicator.

Apart from that, there is if any technical issues arise from the paperwork, to work that out we will need to see the PCNs and the documents given when you collected the car.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 15 Nov 2018 - 11:33
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OP, let's be clear. You posted:

I am 110% sure that car wasn't left there.

You cannot be, you were not there. You are acting on your wife's recollection. This is not to say that this is correct or otherwise, but in this process it is better not to state as a fact something which cannot be proven as such.

As per DD, the obvious (so let's not dance around or ignore it) answer is that she left the vehicle where it was found.

The council's photos will show it parked from where it was removed and that this is location B.

Your only defence appears to be that it was left there without..consent.

The authority would(IMO correctly) reject this in the absence of any supporting information. No dashcam, no P&D and no independent corroboration leaves you with an uphill struggle.

But putting this to one side, your timings/dates appear awry. Would you please just post times and events please:
Car parked at A at *** on ***
Report to police at ** on ***
etc.

Even if your wife left the car at B, this does not explain why the police failed to act. The car did not have a PCN for Sat or Sun so you could(and would) have moved the car from actual(or potential, we don't know) contravention on the Sun and everything would have been fine. IMO you need to nail this sequence and not get too fixated on person or persons unknown moving a car for no apparent purpose and with no signs of forced entry.
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cp8759
post Thu, 15 Nov 2018 - 13:46
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On the information we have to date, the tribunal will rule that it's more likely that not that the OP's wife's recollection of where she left the car is incorrect.

This is intrinsically more likely than the car being moved by someone with a tow truck, or someone with the skills required to break into a car, start the engine, park it round the corner (all without leaving any trace of damage or interference), choosing to move the car for some unknown reason (which let's be honest, appears unlikely).

I suggest the first order of business is to seek CCTV footage from any cameras covering the area, and making a GDPR request to get a copy of any relevant footage. There must be at least one camera between where the car was first parked by the wife, and where it was found by the council. If you can show the car was being moved while the wife was demonstrably elsewhere, you have an unanswerable appeal. Or the footage might show the wife's recollection is incorrect.


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disgrunt
post Thu, 15 Nov 2018 - 22:26
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QUOTE (Sunny84 @ Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 23:49) *
She came back at 3:45 and her car wasn't there. She then looked at the few other streets around from where she actually parked.


I think this says it all.

I feel your pain op. I once had a panicked call from the wife, she'd got off the train and her car had been stolen. Knowing my town had recently started introducing residents parking only in controlled zones (and knowing the car wasn't one that would ordinarily be stolen) I immediately thought she’d had it towed. Resigned to the fact I was going to have to try and appeal (and not looking forward to the prospect of getting the children up and in the car to go and collect her) I asked her to take photos of where she left and any sign posts etc to gather evidence. She suddenly went very quiet on the phone. Turned out she’d parked further up the street and only saw it when she started taking photos.

Good luck with any appeal though.

This post has been edited by disgrunt: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 21:49
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Neil B
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 01:37
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Is there (any kind of) CCTV at either of the two locations?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Sunny84
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 11:02
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Hi Everyone,

Thanks for taking your time in reading my post and providing your valuable comments. First of all as requested I have put the picture on to below links. Please let me know if it does't work then I will try another way. I have uploaded 2 PCN and the document from Impound when they released our vehicle. I paid all the charges £210 because I have been advised by Police that pay all and get your vehicle back rather then paying more to Impound.

https://ibb.co/jWAps0

https://ibb.co/hcY9s0

Now Police is saying that they want go and check any CCTV because it's not a crime or theft so they won't be involve in this. However they are asking me to challenge Edinburgh council.

Now when you see the PCN it says the car found Opposite to No 13 at hatton place , I have looked at in Google maps and it's in the deep end of the street. My wife can't stress enough of telling that she didn't park her car on opposite to 13 hatton place. Because she has got two strong reason 1) She didn't took two left turns to park her car , and if she had to park her car on hatton place from Sciennes Rd then she need to take two left turns . 2) Looking at 13 hatton place on google maps she need to go to far end of Hatton place and she had to walk at least 10 minutes from 13 hatton place to go to the hospital , and she didn't walk for 10 minutes to go to hospital.

Police also said if council did life my vehicle or shifted to another street for some reason then they didn't inform it to anyone and that has caused the issue of reporting my car to be stolen.

So , I am going to start writing a letter to support the representation in meantime if you guys can look at the pictures that I have uploaded and see what you can advise on how best I can challenge the council in order to get my money back.

I really appreciate your help and the time you are taking to advise me on this issue.

Thanks
Sunny
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DancingDad
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 11:45
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Could you clarify?
She parked at 3pm on Sat 10th in "control zone" where parking is restricted …….

I assume from that statement that she parked in a parking bay and possibly had to pay?
Or parked on yellow lines ??
Or what??
What was the restriction where she thinks she parked?

HAve you got the council photos yet?
If not, phone them and ask for them to be emailed.

Is that all the paperwork you received when collected the car, no form saying how to challenge and applicable grounds ?

Don't rush reps and send them off half cock.
You have 28 days from collection of vehicle, use time to make the best case you can.
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Tartarus
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 11:50
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 11:45) *
Could you clarify?
She parked at 3pm on Sat 10th in "control zone" where parking is restricted …….

I assume from that statement that she parked in a parking bay and possibly had to pay?
Or parked on yellow lines ??
Or what??
What was the restriction where she thinks she parked?

As per OP, the restrictions apply Mon-Fri only, she parked there on a Saturday.
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NandoDave
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 12:22
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If your wife had an Android phone with her with location history switched on (which it often is by default), her Google Maps timeline is likely to have logged exactly when and where she parked.

This post has been edited by NandoDave: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 12:22
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hcandersen
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 12:49
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OP, I'm still looking for a clear timeline. Forget left and right turns etc, just a timelne.

Vehicle parked at******* on ******
Driver returned to this location at *** on ****
Car missing and report made to whoever stating what at.....
Second report made at **** or whatever.

Just times and events.

For example, the police cannot justify not actioning any report made before either they were notified by council that car reg. ** had been moved or you told them.

At present we have the best part of 2/3 days unaccounted for.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 15:13
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Sunny84
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:19
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Hello ,


On Saturday 10/11/18 at 3:00 pm car parked at Chalmers Crescent ( Parking restrictions - Mon-Fri , 9:30 to 5:30) , single yellow line.
Came back at 3:45 pm and did not find the car where it was parked

Reported to Police on Saturday 10/11/18 at 5:00 pm about missing car, at 7:00 pm police came to my house to take our statements . Since then no updates about the car until Tuesday 13/11/18 at 3:45 pm when I phoned police to get any updates on my car.

On Tuesday 13/11/18 police told me that it's be lifted by council and shifted to Edinburgh car pound.

Council lifted my car on Tuesday afternoon from Hatton PLace.

We paid all the charges on Wednesday, 14/11/18 for release of our car and got it back on that day.

Hope this answers you question regarding Locations and time lines.

Thanks
Sunny
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stamfordman
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:33
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Chalmers Cres has a junction with Hatton Place and both roads look very similar and have the same time restrictions. You need to be very sure wife wasn't mistaken...

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9377468,-3....6384!8i8192

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peterguk
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 15:07
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QUOTE (Sunny84 @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:19) *
On Tuesday 13/11/18 police told me that it's be lifted by council and shifted to Edinburgh car pound.

How do they KNOW that the council moved it? Or are they making an assumption?


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hcandersen
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 16:27
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OP, thanks,we're getting somewhere.

Is it correct that waiting either at A or B was not restricted on Sat or Sun?

My mind is thinking along the lines of ...even if my wife was mistaken and did leave the car at B, we made strenuous efforts to recover it including reporting the car as missing to the police at *** on ****. It was clearly never her intention to leave the car in contravention and at least by the council removing it and reporting this to the police we had certainty regading its whereabouts which was our main concern, something which the police had signally failed to achieve in the best part of 3 days.


I just wonder what could be made of the above approach rather than just the car and its mysterious movements.

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cp8759
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 16:50
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Still no answers re cctv, there must be a camera covering either location or at least the route that would be taken from point A to point B.


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