Bus Lane 20m dispute. TFL vs Council rules Options

[Theflorist]

Hi

I am currently at Stage 2 of Southwark councils complaint process. I'm at a loss on what to do, i am fatigued from this situation that started 11th July 2018

There was either roadworks or an accident that occured further down the road, so I used the bus lane to make a left turn, the cameras showed my car driving the distance of 3 hatchbacks before making a left turn. At the time i believed cars could be in the bus lane under 20m, so i made sure i was well under 20m before using the bus lane to make a left turn

I was issued a PCN by southwark council, i made my representation.

I do not have a copy of my representation (technically not true, i had a bad feeling about this PCN so i took a photo of my representation before i sent it, on my old phone, which needs fixing) but i essentially showed them TFL's traffic enforcement services, PCN issuing rules, page 7, stating to reject appeals unless the vehicle was in the bus lane for under 20metres.

 highlighttflpcn.pdf ( 1.33MB ) Number of downloads: 196



i hear nothing from southwark council.....
just under 6 months later i receive a letter from bailiff company with a bill of some amount. I call the bailiff company and receive information that its from an unpaid parking fine. I conclude this is southwark council and i call southwark council. The council say they sent a rejection letter in october, of which i never received. I am advised to file a TE7 and TE9 form.
I do this, I receive a rejection letter.

Some time passes by, I get a call from a bailiff agent telling me i must pay £623 within the next half hour or my car will be towed away.
Long story short my car was clamped for weeks until i complained to southwark council that i owe more money in finance on the car than the car is worth on retail value, so what calculation did the bailiff company make to conclude that clamping my car would retrieve and cover the bill?

They took the clamp off last week, i drove my car off to find it wasnt sounding right. Took it to the mechanic, ordered the parts to get fixed this week hopefully.

So by now i have made my stage 1 complaint to the council
The case worker attached the letter i did not receive

Thank you for your recent representations you have made in connection with the issue of the above penalty charge notice (PCN).
We have carefully considered what you have said but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
We sent you a PCN because our camera evidence shows your vehicle in a bus lane at a time when only buses are allowed there.
When you are driving alongside a bus lane and you wish to take a left turning up ahead, you must not enter the bus lane too soon and drive along it before reaching the turning. Instead, you need to turn across the bus lane at the point - usually level with the turning - where its line has changed from solid to broken or where arrows on the road show where to turn.
We have reviewed the CCTV camera evidence and accept that you turned left. However, you entered the bus lane too soon, meaning that you were in the bus lane longer than necessary.

If no days are shown on the restriction signs, as in this case, then this means that the rules apply 24 hours a day, seven days a week, including bank holidays.
Restrictions are put in place to aide motorists, smooth the flow of traffic, and ensure the safety of others in the street. Any vehicle driving incorrectly is a high priority for enforcement action.
It remains the motorist responsibility to ensure that they look out for all signage and comply with the restrictions at all times, and I am therefore satisfied that the contravention did occur and that the PCN was issued correctly.

i email back

[/b[b]]Thank you for your reply.

As I understand Southwark Council cannot be responsible for the non-receipt of post. I, likewise cannot be responsible for a letter lost in the post. Royal Mail lost 257,366 letters and parcels in 2017/2018, based on customer complaints, as analysed by the onby.com website.

I would therefore ask for this situation to be reverted back to the stage where the response of rejection from Southwark Council was sent, so that I am given the chance to take the process further, fairly.

As my representation consisted of illustrating the 20 metre allowance in the bus lane by TFL regulations, the rejection letter from Southwark states:

"when you are driving alongside a bus lane and you wish to take a left turning up ahead, you must not enter the bus lane too soon and drive along it before reaching the turning. Instead, you need to turn across the bus lane at the point- usually level with the turning"

This has left me astounded and frankly appalled that someone decided this was a logical reply to my representation. I hope you too, are able to see, that "too soon" is 20m as exactly stated in my representation and therefore the response "you must not enter the bus lane too soon" makes no sense! If I am misunderstanding something, please, kindly explain to me how this could make sense.

Whilst I appreciate Newlyn provided you with a response, I am not content that the content was accurate.

My complaint was not that Newlyn's correspondence was confusing. I reiterate to you that my complaint is that Newlyn has failed to consider Taking Control of Good National Standards when enforcing a debt:

"20. Enforcement agents must not be deceitful by misrepresenting their powers, qualifications, capacities, experience or abilities, including, but not restricted to;

• Falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when legally it cannot be taken by that agent.

• Falsely implying or stating that a particular course of action will ensue before it is possible to know whether such action would be permissible

• Falsely implying or stating that action has been taken when it has not" (The Taking Control of Goods National Standards 2014)

Mr. ******** told me he was going to arrange to tow my car away. By the end of our conversation, I was led to believe I had 20 minutes to pay before the tow car came. He did not inform me he could not legally tow my car away. He falsely implied that he could and was going to if I didn’t pay the full amount.


I specifically reported to the 101 emergency hotline that the Newlyn agent was threatening to take my car away and I'm not sure he had any right to do so.


Mr. ******** reports that I told the 101 non-emergency agent that my car was being towed. There is a huge difference. I spoke to the 101 non- emergency agent about Mr ******* threatening to take my car away, and his legal rights to do so, and my legal rights in this situation, as Mr ******* was telling me the tow truck would be on its way if I did not pay the full amount within a ridiculously short time frame. If needs be, arrangements can be made to obtain a copy of the phone conversation I had with the 101 non-emergency line to prove this.



I still cannot understand why Newlyn still has the clamp on my car.

"66. Enforcement agents should take all reasonable steps to satisfy themselves that the value of the goods taken into control to cover the sum outstanding is proportional to the value of the debt and fees owed." (The Taking Control of Goods National Standards 2014)


Newlyn has expressed they have taken control of the goods. I owe in excess of £5000 on the car in finance. Car value sites estimate my car at £3000. Please note you can observe on the car 2 major dents to the side bumper that would need replacing and a front windscreen that needs replacing from a crack in the glass. Please can Newlyn explain how this is proportional to the value of the debt of the fees owed? (£513).



Case worker replies

Thank you for your email. I have noted your comments in the email below. Please note that I cannot comment on the analysis carried our by the website you have referred to in your email. If you are having issues with the delivery of the mail, you will need to take this issue up with the Royal Mail.

Also, please note that I have already addressed your claim regarding your representation in my previous email. The Notice of Rejection attached in my previous email provided a full explanation as to the reasoning of the rejection of your representation.

I have also investigated this matter with Newlyn again and they have provided me with a response, which I have attached to this email.

I am satisfied that the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued and progressed correctly and in line with the legislation. Also, Newlyn acted in the spirit of the legislation through out the enforcement process. As mentioned in my previous email, please contact Newlyn on the following details if you want to make payment in instalment:



Case worker's reply:

The document you have provided is from 2007 which is more than ten years old. it is a Transport for London (TfL) guidance for their own officers when dealing with correspondence which is not applicable to Southwark Parking Services. Please note that Southwark Council is a separate organisation and has its own policies and procedures to deal with the contraventions.

I have checked our Traffic Management Orders for the location and it does not mention allowing the motorists to move into the bus lane 20 meters before the turn. There is also no mention of this in any of the legislations mentioned below:

London Local Authorities Act 1996

London Local Authorities Act 2000

It is also not mentioned in the Department for Transport’s (DfT) Traffic Management Act 2004 - Operational Guidance to Local Authorities: Parking Policy and Enforcement (2016 publication).

I understand that you wish to escalate the complaint to stage 2 of the Council’s Corporate Complaint’s procedure. You can do so by emailing your complaint at Complaints@Southwark.gov.uk.


At this point i feel like i'm going crazy, did the case worker say the document i provided was more than 10 years old, yet quote documents which are even older? (2000)

I feel like the council are saying they don't need to use TFL rules as guidelines and are able to enforce their own rules different to TFL and not advertise this anywhere?
to demonstrate, If i drive on TFL turf, i know i can use 20m of bus lane to make a left turn, but when in Southwark turf the rules differ without stating anywhere and as a driver i should be aware which council i'm in, and cater my driving according to each council? I know TFL make allowances for being in the bus lane by moving out of the way for an emergency vehicles. Could it be that this is okay to do on TFL roads but instant PCN in specific councils?

i tried to get to stage 2 complaints

i emailed:

To whom it may concern,


I have raised a complaint once about southwark council and a bus lane ticket I was issued.

I am still not happy with the resolution.

If Southwark council are have their own rules regarding london bus lanes that differ from TFL, how, as a driver should I be aware of this, when there is no information that the bus lanes in southwark council working different from TFL bus lanes?

The correspondence between myself and umair Kamal, whilst has been good and no complaints towards umair Kamal, unfortunately has left me with more questions than answers to this situation.

For example how is it possible I have been informed the TFL documents I sent is over 10 years old (2007), but southwark council can reference london local authorities act 1999 and 2000?
I did read through the London local authorities act and I cant see that southwark council are able to make their own rules up with nothing in writing to say their penalty charge system is different. In the same handwriting does this mean southwark council can charge £200 for a pcn for example, when tfl charge £60/£130, without letting drivers know their penalty amount differs from TFL charges.

Please advise me on how to escalate this matter further

My case number ************************

Thank you for your time.

Kinds regards,

***************




the reply



[size="3"]Dear Miss ********



Complaint - Road network, Parking, Markets and Street Trading 1100137

Thank you for contacting us again. To escalate your complaint you would need to email the reasons why you wish to have it escalated to the Corporate Complaints Unit - ccu@southwark.gov.uk

Further information on the Stage 2 process can be found on the following link:

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/council-and-de...ing-a-complaint

Kind regards



I feel like i did email the reasons why i wish i wanted the case escalated- that the service left me with more questions than answers.
questions like how many metres is "TOO SOON" in the councils reply "When you are driving alongside a bus lane and you wish to take a left turning up ahead, you must not enter the bus lane too soon"

under what circumstances does "USUALLY" not apply in "you need to turn across the bus lane at the point - usually level with the turning"

why was the rejection letter i never received so subjective in words when it should be clear how far "too soon" is, and what is "usually"

I may be fighting a lost battle here but stage 2 complaint and then further complaint by writing to the local MP will cost me nothing. They claim i already owe £512, with my car issue from possible mishandling from the bailiff agent as salt in the wound, i'm feeling a little lost and deflated.

Thank you all so much for reading, any type of suggestion I am most grateful for, right now if anyone knows what a valid reason is for stage 2 complaints please advise me!!!

This post has been edited by Theflorist: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 09:10

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[Neil B]

My heart just dropped to my stomach.... just now upon trying to pull up the TE7 AND TE9 forms from my emails can now see i missed a reply from the TEC to say i need to file for a PE2 AND PE3 FORM! this was on the 10th april 2019. isit too late for me to do this?

I already explained above that it isn't too late.
But the TEC 'refusal' is confusing me. They wouldn't normally process wrong forms at all?
So, refused 12/5, when had you submitted TE7/9?

Bottom line at the moment though is, that if you can file PE2/3, you don't have any reasons to give.
You'd be asking the court to believe you didn't receive several notices, randomly posted over several months.

[Theflorist]

My heart just dropped to my stomach.... just now upon trying to pull up the TE7 AND TE9 forms from my emails can now see i missed a reply from the TEC to say i need to file for a PE2 AND PE3 FORM! this was on the 10th april 2019. isit too late for me to do this?

I already explained above that it isn't too late.
But the TEC 'refusal' is confusing me. They wouldn't normally process wrong forms at all?
So, refused 12/5, when had you submitted TE7/9?

TE7 and TE9 submitted together 10th April 2019 by email.

Bottom line at the moment though is, that if you can file PE2/3, you don't have any reasons to give.
You'd be asking the court to believe you didn't receive several notices, randomly posted over several months.

[Neil B]

Again, that is very odd. Appears to be near normal processing time.
I've never seen TEC process TEs when PEs are needed.

Ask them what happened? and your options.

[Theflorist]

Again, that is very odd. Appears to be near normal processing time.
I've never seen TEC process TEs when PEs are needed.

Ask them what happened? and your options.

Thank you, just to confirm, i am to ring TEC and ask them why they processed a TE when PE was needed?

[Neil B]

Yes.

[Theflorist]

hello all, thank you for the informative help you have provided so far.
as an update, i rang TEC and asked if i could process a PE2 and PE3 form.
they said, although they were the wrong forms, they were processed anyway, which voids me from filling out PE2 and PE3.
i was advised to fill out N244, which i am currently doing.