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Is it just me -, Insurance rant
bama
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 13:06
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changing cars. NCB back to the year dot never had points.

fill in the on-line stuff only at the very end does the
"date of purchase" come up (i.e last thing before paying)
put in this month (as everyone has to do when getting a new/replacement car)
and bang
£70 to £80 quid on top

more than than one insurance company tried - they all seem to be doing it.

can't help but think it is just cynical price gouging.
you have to insure before you can pick up the car so apart from renewals policy everyone will come
across this.
doesn't make sense as a business process/use case/ to me.
they should ask this up front so p[eople know what costs they are facing.
and of course it makes price comparison sites (all the more) b0ll0cks

am I just being reactionary ? or am I righteously aggrieved (for a change) ?


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 13:06
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 13:48
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On a totally unscientific check my friends and family who change cars frequently tend to be the ones more into cars and with heavier right feet.

I would imagine insurance companies have similar data rather than just pulling numbers out of thin air.
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bama
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 14:02
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frequently ?
last vehicle been run for six years
previous one for fifteen years


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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bama
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 20:19
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turns out they are all using the same software base - screen layouts, processing logic and options and (not least) URLs give that away.
e.g. nameofcompany.insure-systems.co.uk

It also turns out that at the bottom of it is a Credit Agreement !!
for a loan to pay the insurance. A loan I didn't ask for - I have plastic cards that pay stuf on-linef.

Can you buy car insurance without taking out a loan ??
How ?

screen shot info example
QUOTE
By completing your payment details you are confirming that you have read and accept the terms and conditions in the following documents About Us | Full Policy Wording | Pre Contract Credit Information | Credit Agreement | Terms & Conditions

Change to pay monthly

Please select the card type you wish to pay your one payment of £nnn.nn with *


I am paying by existing card FFS

did I miss a tiny checkbox somewhere I wonder.
or is it just a general shafting that everyone is in line for ?
Of course the 'loan' ups costs, generates (creates) extra business etc. for the companies involved.

has the car insurance world changed when I wasn't looking ? ?

If its me fine, someone please explain it to me.
But at the moment am severely p1ssed off


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 20:54
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BISL who you are getting a quote through run a number of different own brands and white label brands, so any of them will have the same questions and logic.

· Auto trader · HSBC Car Insurance
· Barclays Motor Insurance · iBuyeco
· Bennetts · Lloyds TSB Car Insurance
· Budget · M&S Car Insurance
· Bradford & Bingley Car Insurance · Pearl Car Insurance
· Dial Direct · Post Office Motor Insurance
· Ecoinsurance for Cars · RAC Car Insurance
· Halifax Car Insurance · Yesinsurance.co.uk

Get a quote from another company or better still a comparison site and you will get different answers.

Different underlying companies have different quote formulae and knowing a (very dull) person who works for them they are very protective of each one. They definitely aren't the same mostly because insurance companies target different drivers because it makes marketing more effective.
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bama
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 21:11
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BISL is indeed one of the common factors (as is the software provider and Ageas).

I started with a comparison site !!
Am sure they are close guarded with their algorithms and 'data selection' criteria.
With a common code base what else do they have to play with ?
Also it is not unknown for an underwriter to refuse a policy change to a different vehicle and yet happily quote away for the same different vehicle with all policy details exactly the same and with the same insurer when its a new policy !! No way on god's good green that that is risk related IMO...

But this effing loan that I don't want is the bugbear.


And from that easily finding an insurance company where I can just just buy a year's worth of insurance without a loan being involved. Don't need and don't want this financial product (the loan).

Just want car insurance without a loan - that doesn't seem to be asking for the moon.

Running quotes driving me loopy

This post has been edited by bama: Tue, 22 May 2018 - 21:13


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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glasgow_bhoy
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 21:33
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I'd recommend Direct Line Bama- I change frequently and they don't seem to charge admin fees anymore.

They certainly haven't hiked up quotes because I've just changed car either.

For me, far cheaper than anyone else now too, even if it does take a call every single renewal time without fail to get them to sort their price.
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bama
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 21:40
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Do you have aloan (that you may not even know about) at the back of your Direct Line policy ?

of course getting to the bottom of this does change the competitiveness of quotes/insurance companies.
so they won't make it easy.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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Fredd
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 21:45
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Are they actually insisting that you take out a loan, or are they allowing you to make a single payment instead? From the brief snippets you've posted it sounds like it's just a boilerplate form listing all their Ts&Cs, some of which will apply to your purchase and some of which won't.


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Churchmouse
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 22:09
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Insurance policies are generally annual, so you buy by the year, not by the month. It stands to reason that if you don't pay for the whole term up front, someone must be extending you credit...

--Churchmouse
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bama
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 22:45
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allowing me to make a single payment ?
annual or monthly is a choice.
annual normally cheaper - less admin for Ins Co and they get full payment up front.
I can't see any reason at all for paying extra for annual payment.
will re-run/amed a quote to monthly to see what happens.
to me it looks like if the finance costs (and various slices of the cake for the numerous parties involved) that makes up the supriose extra whack at the end of the process.
abiout to find out...
Dug this out on the monthly plan

QUOTE
Initial deposit
£30.08
Amount of credit
£370.70
Total amount payable
£400.78
11 instalments of
£33.70
Cash price
£359.97
Charge for credit
£40.81
Applicable APR
26.5%


no tick box for I don't want effin credit of course.
so going forward and just entering the "cash price" on the payment screen and does that negate the Loan ? even when the link to Loan Agreement comes up on screen when you have selected aan annual payment ? I don't think it does but to find out you have to pay and find out afterwards.
Even after picking "annual" the Loan Agreement is there - policyholder name on and a scanned sig from the lender - and you are explicitly agreeing the Ts and Cs.
Boilerplate is one thing but a completed Loan Agreements that isn't wanted is another.
Having said that I suppose it could bjust be sh1tty web design (a common code base can have drawbacks) but how that got through any kind of audit/QA/the use cases etc is beyond me. Screen changes aplenty happen and the screen gets changed. Presenting the Loan Agreement on screen along with text that says 'by paying you are agreeing to these Ts and Cs)
QUOTE
By completing your payment details you are confirming that you have read and accept the terms and conditions in the following documents About Us | Full Policy Wording | Pre Contract Credit Information | Credit Agreement | Terms & Conditions

to be exact is beyond the pale.

Just went back to Annual on a quote from the Post Office
Linked to the "Pre Contract Credit Information"
which has this for the anuual option
QUOTE
The type of credit.
Fixed Sum Credit
The total amount of credit.
This means the amount of credit to be
provided under the proposed credit
agreement or the credit limit.
£329.89.
How and when credit would be provided.
When you enter into an insurance policy (the Policy) together with any
related products purchased at the same time (together with the Policy,
the Insurance Transaction), we will advance the amount being financed
under the credit agreement to BISL, who will be responsible for arranging
the Insurance Transaction on your behalf.
The duration of the credit agreement.
12 months from the Policy commencement date.
Repayments.
The first instalment due will be £33.70 followed by 10 monthly payments
of £33.70.
The total amount you will have to pay.
This means the amount you have
borrowed plus interest and other costs.
£400.78.
The proposed credit will be linked to the
supply of specific goods or the provision
of a service.
Description of goods / services / land (as
applicable).
The credit agreement will finance:

The premium payable for the Policy, with the Number xxxxxxxxxx

Breakdown cover, Motor legal protection, Guaranteed replacement
car and Keycare
Cash price.
The cash price for:

The Policy is £359.97

Breakdown cover is Included, Motor legal protection is Included,
Guaranteed replacement car is Included and Keycare is Included
Security required.
This is a description of the security to be
provided by you in relation to the credit
agreement.
As security for the payment of all amounts that you are at any time
required to pay under the credit agreement, by signing the credit
agreement you will agree to give us a first ranking mortgage over all
rights to and interest in all sums payable under the Insurance
Transaction (including refunds
The rates of interest which apply to the
credit agreement.
12.37% per annum, fixed for the term of the credit agreement.


looks to me that your payment pays the creditor who then pays the insurer (or some other intermediary) monthly anyway.
Run a quote or two at the Post Ofice site and see the docs.
I am all quoted out for the day, am so cross eyed now it could be aliens doing it -or perhaps the cat.

Of course there may be some uplift for the the 'you don't own it yet' but I fail to see why

And of course the loan is an asset for the lending company - and a known and quanitifiable risk to them - don't pay the monthly charge (or it gets snafud) and the Insurance is cancelled.
We are not talking CDO level risk with these loans (though I bet they do get packeged up in the background but thats another matter)

This should make things a tad clearer (Not before time you say)

Creditor is BFSL
Customer (poor gink trying to buy the policy)
Credit Intermediary) BISL (same address as BFSL of course)

This post has been edited by bama: Tue, 22 May 2018 - 22:55


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 18:45
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I'm a creature of habit when I sort insurance.
Comparison sites, find lowest quotes.
Try people like direct line if the will to live allows.
PHONE selected insurer and ask for a discount, using lower quotes as a lever.
Get discount and insure over phone.
I've managed to reduce premium from previous year with same insurers that way.
Changed car on existing policy with no admin fee.

Never signed up for insurance online and no intention of doing so while the option to chat to a human being exists.
For insurance to drive away on purchase, I phone existing insurer and ask for day's cover.... has been free, most 20 quid
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glasgow_bhoy
post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 20:29
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QUOTE (bama @ Tue, 22 May 2018 - 22:40) *
Do you have aloan (that you may not even know about) at the back of your Direct Line policy ?

of course getting to the bottom of this does change the competitiveness of quotes/insurance companies.
so they won't make it easy.

Nope. I pay annually and haven't ever asked for a quote monthly.

From what I can establish from my own credit file, I think the credit searches have only taken place where I've clicked the monthly quote box, so I'm very careful not to tick it for anything.
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bama
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 11:31
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Yup. looks like direct line has no credit agreement in the background.

Thing is the on-line quotes that i am referring to (with unasked for and unwanted credit agreements 'thrown' in) all showed a "Cash Price" that excluded the credit costs.
Phone 'em up and tell them you will pay the cash price and they (well at least the RAC) couldn't do it. the software at their end lumped it in anyway. Lots of fun ensued whenIi asked why the extra amount (I wasn't up to speed on the 'credit in the background' thing. best he could come up with was 'all I can think of is its because you are beuy a car and you may not be used to it at first and so are a higher risk'. So either the phone bods ae not told about the credit agreement and that there is an illustrated "cash price" or they are told to lie their asses off about it. For sure (according to what he said) there was no way he could physically do it for the cash price using the software at his end. Quite a blockakage that to say the least.

As you are paying by card you already have the money to pay for the insurance (or the card will be declined) so why get credit ? there is no reason at all - for the consumer.
Look at BFSL's annual financial reports at Companies House and you can see why they want you to have it though....
I see the Insurance Act 2015 changed a few things but how that enables 'forced credit' I have no idea. then again I have't read the Act all the way through.

It should not be difficult to avoid a credit arrangement that you do not need and do not want ! But as far as car insurance goes (at least, there could well be other fields) it seems to quite a challenge. Thats just plain wrong IMO.
And if someone pays by credit card anyway why a second credit agreement ? - paying interest on interest from the git go.

then ponder the mechanics.
BFSL is the Creditor but who get the funds from your card payment ? Where does it go and who benefits from it ? I suspect it is BISL who are agents (who is the principal ?).
I suspect that even if you pay annually they amortise the cash monthly between themselves
thus spreading reveue out - regular meals rather than an annual feast i.e. cash flow. Plus why charge for something once when you can charge for it 12 times !.

And fo course BFSL is part of a group of companies and money gets sloshed around between them - significant amouts according to the Annual Reports they have filed.

interestingly their CFO is also a director of a major on-line price comparison company and a director of a claims settlement company. Talk about one hand washing the other.

If any readers are getting insurance soon via on-line system9s) then by all means look closely at the credit agreement side of it ! (the credit agreement docs in the backgound should be downloaded and read closely. You will see they are populated with the relevant amounts according to the quote your are chasing. Its not boilerplate, it is a customised agreement.)
then ring 'em up and tell them you have sufficient funds and will buy at the illustrated cash price and see if you get any joy.

This post has been edited by bama: Thu, 24 May 2018 - 11:35


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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666
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 11:59
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QUOTE (bama @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 12:31) *
As you are paying by card you already have the money to pay for the insurance (or the card will be declined) so why get credit ? there is no reason at all - for the consumer.


Not if it's a credit card. If you use a credit card, and don't pay it off in full, then you'll almost certainly be paying a much higher interest rate than you would on the insurer's credit plan.

On the wider issue, I have been insuring for many years through a variety of comparison sites, and have never had any difficulty in paying in full. Have I just been lucky?
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bama
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 12:08
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QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 12:59) *
QUOTE (bama @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 12:31) *
As you are paying by card you already have the money to pay for the insurance (or the card will be declined) so why get credit ? there is no reason at all - for the consumer.


Not if it's a credit card. If you use a credit card, and don't pay it off in full, then you'll almost certainly be paying a much higher interest rate than you would on the insurer's credit plan.

You will be paying both

On the wider issue, I have been insuring for many years through a variety of comparison sites, and have never had any difficulty in paying in full. Have I just been lucky?

"in full" ? you mean annually ? yes me too, I always do the annual premium (and with a debit card). Its the credit agreement with BFSL that you can't seem to avoid that is the issue



--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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