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Advice for Whipps Cross Rd, E11 Bus lane fine
fstar
post Mon, 11 Oct 2021 - 22:58
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Dear forum members

Pls advise on this bus lane camera fine at Whipps Cross Road (London, E11). It seems this is a notorious bus lane camera..
https://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/1952...ondon-bus-lane/

From a recent page on the same bus lane the de-minimis argument was rejected both by Waltham Forest and at the Tribunal:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t131889.html

Can I appeal on the grounds of no signage indicating operating times or end of the bus lane?

Probably not a defense, but it was a long day having been on the road since 6am (traveled to B'ham), and I was unfamiliar with the bus lane as took a detour to my usual way home due to an accident on the A406.

I need to appeal by 14 Oct so hope to hear from you soon. Many thanks.

This post has been edited by fstar: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 - 23:02
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post Mon, 11 Oct 2021 - 22:58
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Glitch
post Fri, 15 Oct 2021 - 11:54
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QUOTE (fstar @ Fri, 15 Oct 2021 - 00:18) *
Interesting to see that till Aug 2012 the "End of bus lane" sign was well before the actual end of bus lane:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.573499,0.01...3312!8i6656
Between Aug 2012 to Jul 2014 this was removed and replaced with a sign well ahead of the end of the bus lane:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.57346,0.015...3312!8i6656
Then between Mar 2018 and Apr 2019 this was removed:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5734389,0.0...6384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5733922,0.0...6384!8i8192
Don't know why they just couldn't place it in line with the actual end of the bus lane!


An 'End of Bus Lane' sign is not mandatory. They rely on the road marking - end of solid white line. I reckon they couldn't fix the sign on the bridge. Better to not have one at all.

Different road surface colour is also optional and has no legal purpose in conveying the restrictions.

There has been successful appeals at his location for lack of end of bus lane sign and/or the EA not providing any evidence to counter the argument that signage is wrong.

It very much depends which adjudicator you get and whether they understand what signs and road markings are needed. The most recent successful appeal mentioned above - Sarah-Jane Mendonca Case ref 2210480049, is a case in point. It's a joke and highlights adjudicator lack of knowledge and the abject inconsistency with the appeals. Look at the list that Yazz put together.

CP has a cast iron technical reason to appeal any London bus lane PCN. Whether those grounds are consistently accepted remains to be seen.

Personally I'd go with CP's camera grounds but until it has a series of successful appeals I'd also add de-minimis and lack of signage in the hope that something sticks with the adjudicator you end up with. If they rely soley on the road marking then I would also argue that the bus lane ends where there is a break in the line - a tenuous reason perhaps but a scatter gun seems to have worked here until CP's sniper rifle is ranged in.

CP has argued that you shouldn't use reasons that rely on the inadmissible evidence of the CCTV but I would cover all bases by saying if you do believe the camera is OK then here's the reasons I still think the appeal should be allowed.

This post has been edited by Glitch: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 - 12:04
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Neil B
post Fri, 15 Oct 2021 - 15:33
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I'm unsure where we are up to now.
Did you submit a challenge yesterday after all?

One important thing is that for the ensuing stages you will need written authority from the
hire co to make representations on their behalf.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Sun, 17 Oct 2021 - 14:59
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QUOTE (fstar @ Thu, 14 Oct 2021 - 08:16) *
The other thing is the vehicle I was driving was a hire car, from a company I use fairly regularly so ideally I don't want to drag this to a Tribunal unless real chance of winning as don't want to damage my relationship with the hire car company either.

If things are done properly the chances of you losing at the tribunal are remote.

If you've sent a representation under the hire company ground, you're already going wrong as that ground does not exist for London bus lane PCNs, and you've failed to mention the issue of the cameras not having Home Office Type Approval. No harm done as w're still at the informal stage, but if you make the same mistakes at later stages you risk snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

For the avoidance of doubt you cannot argue the camera angle yourself, it's way too technical and you'll need one of us to argue the appeal for you.

For now show us exactly what you have sent.


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fstar
post Fri, 29 Oct 2021 - 17:42
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 14 Oct 2021 - 22:54) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 14 Oct 2021 - 16:36) *
edit.

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 14 Oct 2021 - 15:55) *
The correct procedure is for the hire/lease company to submit their own representations and give your name and address. A new PCN should then be sent to you. Others will comment.

They can't for a London bus lane.


QUOTE (fstar @ Thu, 14 Oct 2021 - 16:19) *
Regarding invalid bus lane cameras (post #4), has this gone to a Tribunal and been successful?

Well he gave a relevant case ref?

On other matters, a case for the location won on Tuesday.
I can't judge from a night vid how close you are to the end of the bus lane but others might recall
from previous cases.

Mea Culpa !
This just shows the sheer barminess of the legislation around parking and traffic, where one set of legislation has process for a hire company to transfer liability, and one that doesn't . A Dog's Breakfast indeed !
So, OP, the hire company retain full responsibility for that PCN, so I suggest you read your agreement closely to see what happens if you lose an appeal. I suspect they will pay and then off-charge it to you and add in an admin fee.


So they have wrote back to the hire company saying they can't transfer and they have rejected the informal representation, I don't know why they said this as I / hire company didn't give any grounds for anappeal just requested transfer, see pages below..
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgNme6kcdXQ5yC2TgUY...J0WCS2?e=cu3UdP
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgNme6kcdXQ5yC4NW9O...XLPuwY?e=gKQHzw
(I can't seem to attach anymore attachments to this post but hopefully you can access links above, any issues please let me know, unfortunately the hire company delayed in sending me the letter so looks like I need to pay £65 by 31st Oct or formally challenge)
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cp8759
post Sat, 30 Oct 2021 - 22:25
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QUOTE (fstar @ Fri, 29 Oct 2021 - 18:42) *
So they have wrote back to the hire company saying they can't transfer and they have rejected the informal representation, I don't know why they said this as I / hire company didn't give any grounds for anappeal just requested transfer, see pages below..

Did you read my reply above? You cannot transfer liability for a London bus lane PCNs unless it's a long-term lease.

You can beat this PCN, but you really need to start following our advice and do as we ask, or else you risk snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

For now, please show us exactly what the hire company sent to the council.


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fstar
post Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 00:18
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 30 Oct 2021 - 23:25) *
QUOTE (fstar @ Fri, 29 Oct 2021 - 18:42) *
So they have wrote back to the hire company saying they can't transfer and they have rejected the informal representation, I don't know why they said this as I / hire company didn't give any grounds for anappeal just requested transfer, see pages below..

Did you read my reply above? You cannot transfer liability for a London bus lane PCNs unless it's a long-term lease.

You can beat this PCN, but you really need to start following our advice and do as we ask, or else you risk snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

For now, please show us exactly what the hire company sent to the council.


Apologies for the delay, pls see below..
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgNme6kcdXQ5yDG5Zjn...QLQKER?e=y6Sgow
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgNme6kcdXQ5yDKbaoo...TTEeX0?e=7mAfcU

The "Appeal Reason" was "You are a hire company and have supplied the hirer's name and address"
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cp8759
post Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 10:10
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OK so with this being a short-term hire, the council is correct, there is no mechanism to transfer liability. Instead, you need the hire company to give you a letter of authority.

The next step in the process is that the council will issue an Enforcement Notice to the hire company, demanding £130. It is extremely important that you now contact the hire company, tell them you have taken legal advice, and that you have grounds to challenge the PCN and require a letter of authority to do so. Also tell them that they must not pay the PCN.

If they pay the Enforcement Notice, you lose all rights of appeal and it's case closed, so this must not happen.

Instead, when they receive the Enforcement Notice, they need to forward it to you together with a letter of authority authorising you to make representations on behalf of the hire company.

To give them some reassurance, stress that if the challenge is rejected, you will appeal to the tribunal but even if you lose at the tribunal, the penalty cannot increase further and it remains at £130, so there is nothing to be lost in carrying on. Also confirm to them that you will indemnify them if the £130 ends up needing to be paid.

Once you've spoken to them come back here and let us know what they've said.


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fstar
post Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 14:52
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Thanks. I've emailed the hire company and will keep you updated.
Also I know the branch manager, will it suffice for him to write/email confirming authority to challenge on their behalf or does this need to come from their head office / actual company secretary?

FYI as I have the PCN and VRM I logged into the online portal and still currently showing at the discounted amount:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgNme6kcdXQ5yDikKO7...SoHz-E?e=fYkHTe

Under the Challenge PCN tab the reason options are:
Procedural Impropriety
The alleged parking contravention did not occur
The penalty charge or release or storage charge exceeded the relevant amount
The Traffic Regulation Order was invalid
When the vehicle was parked it had been taken without your consent
You are a hire company and have supplied the hirer`s name and address
You were not the owner of the vehicle when the alleged contravention occurred

This post has been edited by fstar: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 14:56
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cp8759
post Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 20:54
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QUOTE (fstar @ Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 14:52) *
Also I know the branch manager, will it suffice for him to write/email confirming authority to challenge on their behalf or does this need to come from their head office / actual company secretary?

An email or letter from the branch manager will do.


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fstar
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 23:54
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 2 Nov 2021 - 20:54) *
QUOTE (fstar @ Mon, 1 Nov 2021 - 14:52) *
Also I know the branch manager, will it suffice for him to write/email confirming authority to challenge on their behalf or does this need to come from their head office / actual company secretary?

An email or letter from the branch manager will do.


Hi all, the branch manager has confirmed their approval for me to challenge the PCN (they did email a few weeks ago but I somehow missed that email, apologies).

According to the online portal, NTO has been sent, though I've not heard anything from the branch manager.
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgNme6kcdXQ5yFu12wH...JH9OuU?e=qEtpiC

Also on the online portal I can Challenge the PCN should I do this here, please advise, thanks.
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cp8759
post Sat, 27 Nov 2021 - 15:35
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You need to contact the branch manager and get hold of the Enforcement Notice. Have they given you a letter authorising you to challenge the enforcement notice on their behalf?


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fstar
post Wed, 8 Dec 2021 - 23:32
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Pls see below..
EN:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgNme6kcdXQ5yRO-C3p...T9m7nJ?e=DLxlaD
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgNme6kcdXQ5yRLx-K1...kjYBom?e=ENgPpR

Hire Company authorisation email:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgNme6kcdXQ5yRXk-Kt...X0s_80?e=cw8nFV

Hope to hear your advice on next steps soon.
Many thanks.
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cp8759
post Wed, 8 Dec 2021 - 23:43
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Where's the other two pages?

The branch manager needs to understand that making a representation against the PCN freezes the charge at £130 so it cannot go up any more. However he also needs to understand that if the charge is paid before the council considers the representations and issues a Notice of Rejection, the right to appeal to the tribunal is lost.

If you think it might help you can put me in touch with the branch manager and I will talk to him directly.


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fstar
post Thu, 9 Dec 2021 - 01:04
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 8 Dec 2021 - 23:43) *
Where's the other two pages?

The branch manager needs to understand that making a representation against the PCN freezes the charge at £130 so it cannot go up any more. However he also needs to understand that if the charge is paid before the council considers the representations and issues a Notice of Rejection, the right to appeal to the tribunal is lost.

If you think it might help you can put me in touch with the branch manager and I will talk to him directly.


Thanks for your swift response, much appreciated.
Sorry that slipped my mind, I've been under a lot of stress at my workplace recently and just haven't been able to keep on top of this challenge.

I did email the manager about the remaining pages but he replied last week stating "We only received 2 pages in the documents that they sent us." which sounds odd. I logged into the PCN portal it states NTO/EN sent but can't see the letters - should I try and contact the Council to get a full copy by email?

I don't think they will pay without at least contacting me first but you are right he seems very concerned about costs escalating and wants the PCN paid.
If you are happy to do that I can put you in touch, pls advise on steps.
Note I have mentioned to the hire company that I have taken legal advice about challenging this PCN though didn't say this was via an online forum. As mentioned previously I use this particular hire company regularly and have a paid booking coming up in a couple of weeks so want to maintain a good relationship with them.
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cp8759
post Thu, 9 Dec 2021 - 09:45
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I'll send you a PM


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cp8759
post Fri, 17 Dec 2021 - 09:40
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Just to close this off the hire company flatly refused to allow any challenge and the OP has now paid.


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