PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

PCN Notice of Rejection of Representations - MCR Oxford Road (Charles Street to Brancaster Road)
manchestergate
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 20:43
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 6 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,316



hi hope someone can help. i drove down manchester oxford road and my vehicle was recorded as being in a bus lane. i appealed the PCN because i felt that signage was totally inadequate, i did not at any point of the journey realise i was in a bus lane, i felt i was extra vigilant as i had read in the paper about the changes and still made the journey unaware i was in a bus lane at any point. i have googled this and it seems many people have felt the same way. i turned from Charles street, right onto Oxford Road where i did not see any signage at all or clear markings on the road. i feel that looking at the footage, it is still unclear and does not look like a bus lane, and even if you could tell it was a bus lane or noticed the small sign as you immediately turn, there is no other way i could go, no other lane and cannot reverse onto a main road to change direction. the date of contravention occurred on 30/06/2018 and i received a letter immediately. i appealed this on 09/07/2018 and received an email (attached dated 09/07/2018) which said i would have a reply in 2 weeks. i have not heard anything whatsoever until Saturday 8th December 2018 where i received the attached rejection. i am not as eloquent or aware of my rights but feel i have grounds to appeal this to TPT based on the below facts.
1) i feel the signage is inadequate, misleading and unclear. i am a diligent driver who has been driving for many years up this road and the changes are unclear. the terminology bus gate is alien to me, and the signs are tiny in comparison to the many lanes on the road and the size/how busy the lanes are. they are not traditional signs that i am familiar with as a driver who drives through many uk cities and there appears to be little road markings.
2) the Charles Street to Brancaster Road part of Oxford Road is where my contravention occurred. i cannot recall seeing clear signing that stated that a bus lane is immediately on the right turn thus i should be steered away from this turning with a no entry sign or clear signage. i do not feel this was the case. this particular right turning turns onto a bus lane within 2 metres and at this point there is nothing the driver can do but go into the bus lane. i did not even realise at the time this had occured which shows how unclear the signs are.
3) When i appealed the initial PCN, i received an email dated 09/07/2018 which stated i would have a reply in 2 weeks, i have not heard anything at all, no interim email/letter to state my case is being investigated. i rang to query why such a huge delay and was told there was a backlog. it is unacceptable that i did not have a reply in the time period that was stated by Manchester City Council and it did not carry a caveat stating that replies may be less frequent in busier periods. for a delay of 5 months it is unacceptable i feel and for such a sizeable back log it suggests that many motorists are receiving the same poor responses after making the same mistakes again due to unclear signage.
4) the Notice of Rejection of Representations letter i received is absolutely standard which does not reassure me that this case was properly considered. the letter is worded exactly the same as other letters i have managed to find via google and is worded in a way as if it was personally constructed and investigated, whereas in reality it appears to be a standard rejection letter. i feel disappointed and not reassured that my case, and other drivers has been taken seriously so would like to take this to the TPT if possible.
5) a quick google has shown many motorists have been unclear on signage and received PCN. the TPT have stated they feel the signage is inadequate but still this is happening.


I would appreciate it if anyone could please let me know if they feel i have a case, i have read some similar letters on this forum but i am not familiar with the formal process of appeal nor the eloquent way in which people have responded so would appreciate it if anyone could assist me in writing an appeal to the TPT. i have attached my email i received once i originally appealled, the Notice of Rejection of Representations i received, and also the footage of my contravention.
thanks so much for reading.


hi sorry the footage is here on youtube:

https://youtu.be/moja45OWpFY
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Doc2.pdf ( 857.33K ) Number of downloads: 78
Attached File  Doc3.pdf ( 110.48K ) Number of downloads: 47
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 10)
Advertisement
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 20:43
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Incandescent
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 21:29
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,915
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



Did you really turn right from Charles St into Oxford Road, because this is the approach with this sign: -

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4735485,-...33;8i8192?hl=en

Or maybe you turned right off Hulme St, the one opposite Charles St ? Here's the Google map


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4734948,-...45,17.75z?hl=en
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
manchestergate
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 21:53
Post #3


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 6 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,316



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 21:29) *
Did you really turn right from Charles St into Oxford Road, because this is the approach with this sign: -

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4735485,-...33;8i8192?hl=en

Or maybe you turned right off Hulme St, the one opposite Charles St ? Here's the Google map


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4734948,-...45,17.75z?hl=en

Hi

Thanks for replying. The first link you sent, it appears I actually turned left rather than right I think. That's what appears to correlate with the footage I have. Sorry to be so vague it's so confusing. Also, on the Google maps link, if I did turn left, I can't see a sign prior to turning on to the road, at which point it is too late.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 21:58
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



If you turned left you must have passed this sign: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4735485,-...33;8i8192?hl=en


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
manchestergate
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:10
Post #5


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 6 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,316



Hi yes I must have done but to me it's not obvious and can't see it until you have practically turned onto the road at which point it's too late. and I didn't notice it at the time I don't recall. Unless there is another sign you mean. Either way I think it's a small sign and no markings on the road so it isn't obvious. From Googling it seems lots of people have found this the same and the Manchester evening news has reported that the TPT reported 94 appeals for this area by August 18 and that 89 were overturned. Do you think I have grounds to appeal? Thanks for replying.

Hi yes I must have done but to me it's not obvious and can't see it until you have practically turned onto the road at which point it's too late. and I didn't notice it at the time I don't recall. Unless there is another sign you mean. Either way I think it's a small sign and no markings on the road so it isn't obvious. From Googling it seems lots of people have found this the same and the Manchester evening news has reported that the TPT reported 94 appeals for this area by August 18 and that 89 were overturned. Do you think I have grounds to appeal? Thanks for replying.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.manchest...de-15044798.amp
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:11
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



You could use the same logic I employed in this appeal: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1435978

Take time to read it and understand it and then try writing a draft for your own case, post it here before submitting it to the council.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
manchestergate
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:19
Post #7


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 6 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,316



Fabulous, thanks for taking the time to send a link to yours, this is much appreciated.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:29
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,915
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



If you're going to convince an adjudicator, you'll have to say why you didn't pay any attention to these identical signs: -

1st sign
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4738731,-...33;8i8192?hl=en

2nd sign
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4735485,-...33;8i8192?hl=en

The only things one can criticise is they are on the right, whereas logically they should be on the left as then they are nearer a driver's line of sight. Also there is nothing at the point of decision until you have actually turned. If the scaffolding is still in place it virtually covers the sign and the one on the opposite side of the street seems to apply to Hulme St

So, if you want a gamble, take them to TPT. Manchester will continue to thumb their noses at everybody including the adjudicators as there are no penalties on them for doing so.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:36
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
manchestergate
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 21:18
Post #9


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 6 Dec 2018
Member No.: 101,316



Hi

Thanks once again for the responses to this post, they were extremely helpful. I have appealed to the TPT now and the authority has uploaded their evidence. I have 2 options now whether to let this go direct to the adjudicator or for a telephone hearing. I have no idea what to expect from a telephone hearing, would anyone be able to tell me what I should expect or any advice? I have the evidence from the authority and still feel strongly about my case that the signage was poor, the delay in receiving my rejection notification from the council (5months when stated 2 weeks in email with no further correspondence between)

All advice given prior has been gratefully received.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 22:20
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Well we did advise that you should post your draft representations here before sending them to the council. You went ahead and made representations, they were rejected and you've now submitted an appeal without the benefit of any advice from us, so for example you have no idea if there are procedural errors in the Notice of Rejection.

I suggest you post a copy of:

1) Your representations
2) The Notice of Rejection
3) Your appeal to the tribunal

We can then see what the situation is and advice accordingly. At the moment we're just flying blind.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 22:20


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
StuartLittle2019
post Fri, 1 Feb 2019 - 13:58
Post #11


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 1 Feb 2019
Member No.: 102,227



Would really appreciate any help on a similar topic below.... i've noticed some really valuable contributions on this topic

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125782
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 12:36
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here