38L - Failing to comply with a sign - think I have grounds for appeal! |
38L - Failing to comply with a sign - think I have grounds for appeal! |
Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 20:10
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 19 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,492 |
Hi All,
I received a PCN from Croydon Council for code 38L. However, I have a couple of issues with this, and so I will be very grateful for your thoughts: 1. The PCN and online evidence does not show any actual image of the alleged contravention. 2. The road signage indicates that such a turn is possible Please see below the PCN, and the online evidence does not provide any video, only the two images in the PCN. Here is a link to the street view: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3846517,-...6384!8i8192 Do I have any chance of a successful appeal? Many thanks in advance for your thoughts. |
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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 20:10
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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 20:20
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
The evidence is the video of the contravention, not the stills in the PCN.
Get to see the video and post a link here. -------------------- |
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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 20:29
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 19 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,492 |
The evidence is the video of the contravention, not the stills in the PCN. Get to see the video and post a link here. Thanks, unfortunately there is no video online, and no mention of how to obtain a video on the PCN. I can contact the council regarding whether they have any video evidence, but it seems that there is none based on the online evidence. Is this normal for the video not to show up on the online facility? |
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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 21:04
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
There were roadworks going on last street view so can't tell anything from that. Sometimes video does show up in certain browsers - if you PM details I'll check on my systems. Otherwise you'll need to ask Croydon.
But signage here is the key and you may have to visit the location if you can. https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3844901,-0....6384!8i8192 |
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Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 10:24
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I recon the sign is the one in the middle of the picture here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3844121,-...6384!8i8192
I think you drove to the right of the sign and down the road where the white van can be seen turning out of. To complete this manoeuvre lawfully you should have pivoted round the isle and done a u-turn, but alas we are where we are. PM the PCN details to me or stamfordman and we'll try and get hold of the video. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 10:44
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I recon the sign is the one in the middle of the picture here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3844121,-...6384!8i8192 I think you drove to the right of the sign and down the road where the white van can be seen turning out of. To complete this manoeuvre lawfully you should have pivoted round the isle and done a u-turn, but alas we are where we are. PM the PCN details to me or stamfordman and we'll try and get hold of the video. +1 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 11:19
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 19 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,492 |
Thanks Stamford and CP for the replies. I've sent a PM to CP, didn't let me PM Stamford after that for some reason.
I've also emailed Croydon council requesting the video, but their response time is 56 days (!).... Is the best way forward to make a 'representation' on the online facility and request the video? I'm conscious that the discount period ends on the 23rd, so I'd like to make a representation before then. Many thanks for your advice. |
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Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 11:21
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDJo8F-xfVM
So the road you wanted to go down was effectively closed and they're using the keep left bollard to enforce the closure. Yes the diversion is annoying, but I'm not sure it justifies driving on the wrong side of the road. On the other hand, the sign is directing you to drive down a closed road. PASTMYBEST, thoughts? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 11:26
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 19 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,492 |
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDJo8F-xfVM So the road you wanted to go down was effectively closed and they're using the keep left bollard to enforce the closure. Yes the diversion is annoying, but I'm not sure it justifies driving on the wrong side of the road. On the other hand, the sign is directing you to drive down a closed road. PASTMYBEST, thoughts? Thanks CP for that. Yes, I think the road signage did confuse me. Will be interested to hear everyone's thoughts. Thanks again. |
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Sat, 1 Dec 2018 - 11:32
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 19 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,492 |
I appealed on basis of the arrow on the road incorrectly indicating that I could turn right in the area. Have had a response back rejecting the appeal, any advice if it's worth taking further? I'm thinking probably not.
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Sat, 1 Dec 2018 - 11:57
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Show us your representations and the notice of rejection
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 1 Dec 2018 - 12:39
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#12
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
The time on the PCN cannot be correct because, according to the video, at 17.44.22 you had not even entered the YBJ.
Mick |
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Sat, 1 Dec 2018 - 21:50
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I think you have a better than evens chance at adjudication show us the reps and NoR
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:24
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 19 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,492 |
Hi Mick, Past, apologies for the very slow reponse. Attached is the rejection letter front page . I can't find the exact representation I made, they didn't send me a copy when I sent it off online, but it was along the lines of "I don't think the council has carried out their duty of ensuring the road signs are clear. By leaving the arrow on the road indicating I could turn right, it appears the Council are at fault and so I shouldn't have to pay the fine"...
Grateful for your advice. This post has been edited by c01923u3mc12: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:29
Attached File(s)
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:26
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Hi Mick, Past, apologies for the very slow reponse. Attached is the rejection letter front page . I can't find the exact representation I made, they didn't send me a copy when I sent it off online, but it was along the lines of "I don't think the council has carried out their duty of ensuring the road signs are clear. By leaving the arrow on the road indicating I could turn right, it appears the Council are at fault and so I shouldn't have to pay the fine"... Grateful for your advice. no attachment -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:30
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 19 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,492 |
Hi Mick, Past, apologies for the very slow reponse. Attached is the rejection letter front page . I can't find the exact representation I made, they didn't send me a copy when I sent it off online, but it was along the lines of "I don't think the council has carried out their duty of ensuring the road signs are clear. By leaving the arrow on the road indicating I could turn right, it appears the Council are at fault and so I shouldn't have to pay the fine"... Grateful for your advice. no attachment Now attached |
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 19:08
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Hi Mick, Past, apologies for the very slow reponse. Attached is the rejection letter front page . I can't find the exact representation I made, they didn't send me a copy when I sent it off online, but it was along the lines of "I don't think the council has carried out their duty of ensuring the road signs are clear. By leaving the arrow on the road indicating I could turn right, it appears the Council are at fault and so I shouldn't have to pay the fine"... Grateful for your advice. no attachment Now attached we need to see it all -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 19:34
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 19 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,492 |
Strangely system isn't letting me attach these directly. Here's the rest of the pages:
https://ibb.co/P5rtfFD https://ibb.co/2yHz7LW https://ibb.co/3pX61KK https://ibb.co/K6YQ49r https://ibb.co/PCWzfdf Let me know if you need anything else. |
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 21:18
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I don't really see any strong grounds of appeal, you could take it to the tribunal but it would be a bit of a gamble.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:00
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I don't really see any strong grounds of appeal, you could take it to the tribunal but it would be a bit of a gamble. i'd have a go but its not my money The PCN is defective it does not show a time of contravention (seconds are not required, but they are there so it must be accurate) and the right turn arrow could be misleading -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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