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38L - Failing to comply with a sign - think I have grounds for appeal!
c01923u3mc12
post Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 20:10
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Hi All,

I received a PCN from Croydon Council for code 38L. However, I have a couple of issues with this, and so I will be very grateful for your thoughts:

1. The PCN and online evidence does not show any actual image of the alleged contravention.
2. The road signage indicates that such a turn is possible

Please see below the PCN, and the online evidence does not provide any video, only the two images in the PCN. Here is a link to the street view: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3846517,-...6384!8i8192

Attached Image


Do I have any chance of a successful appeal? Many thanks in advance for your thoughts.
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post Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 20:10
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peterguk
post Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 20:20
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The evidence is the video of the contravention, not the stills in the PCN.

Get to see the video and post a link here.


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c01923u3mc12
post Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 20:29
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 21:20) *
The evidence is the video of the contravention, not the stills in the PCN.

Get to see the video and post a link here.


Thanks, unfortunately there is no video online, and no mention of how to obtain a video on the PCN. I can contact the council regarding whether they have any video evidence, but it seems that there is none based on the online evidence. Is this normal for the video not to show up on the online facility?
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stamfordman
post Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 21:04
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There were roadworks going on last street view so can't tell anything from that. Sometimes video does show up in certain browsers - if you PM details I'll check on my systems. Otherwise you'll need to ask Croydon.

But signage here is the key and you may have to visit the location if you can.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3844901,-0....6384!8i8192

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cp8759
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 10:24
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I recon the sign is the one in the middle of the picture here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3844121,-...6384!8i8192

I think you drove to the right of the sign and down the road where the white van can be seen turning out of. To complete this manoeuvre lawfully you should have pivoted round the isle and done a u-turn, but alas we are where we are. PM the PCN details to me or stamfordman and we'll try and get hold of the video.


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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 10:44
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 11:24) *
I recon the sign is the one in the middle of the picture here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3844121,-...6384!8i8192

I think you drove to the right of the sign and down the road where the white van can be seen turning out of. To complete this manoeuvre lawfully you should have pivoted round the isle and done a u-turn, but alas we are where we are. PM the PCN details to me or stamfordman and we'll try and get hold of the video.


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c01923u3mc12
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 11:19
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Thanks Stamford and CP for the replies. I've sent a PM to CP, didn't let me PM Stamford after that for some reason.

I've also emailed Croydon council requesting the video, but their response time is 56 days (!)....

Is the best way forward to make a 'representation' on the online facility and request the video? I'm conscious that the discount period ends on the 23rd, so I'd like to make a representation before then. Many thanks for your advice.
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cp8759
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 11:21
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Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDJo8F-xfVM

So the road you wanted to go down was effectively closed and they're using the keep left bollard to enforce the closure. Yes the diversion is annoying, but I'm not sure it justifies driving on the wrong side of the road. On the other hand, the sign is directing you to drive down a closed road. PASTMYBEST, thoughts?


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c01923u3mc12
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 11:26
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 12:21) *
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDJo8F-xfVM

So the road you wanted to go down was effectively closed and they're using the keep left bollard to enforce the closure. Yes the diversion is annoying, but I'm not sure it justifies driving on the wrong side of the road. On the other hand, the sign is directing you to drive down a closed road. PASTMYBEST, thoughts?


Thanks CP for that. Yes, I think the road signage did confuse me. Will be interested to hear everyone's thoughts. Thanks again.
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c01923u3mc12
post Sat, 1 Dec 2018 - 11:32
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I appealed on basis of the arrow on the road incorrectly indicating that I could turn right in the area. Have had a response back rejecting the appeal, any advice if it's worth taking further? I'm thinking probably not.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 1 Dec 2018 - 11:57
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Show us your representations and the notice of rejection


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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 1 Dec 2018 - 12:39
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The time on the PCN cannot be correct because, according to the video, at 17.44.22 you had not even entered the YBJ.

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 1 Dec 2018 - 21:50
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I think you have a better than evens chance at adjudication show us the reps and NoR


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c01923u3mc12
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:24
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Hi Mick, Past, apologies for the very slow reponse. Attached is the rejection letter front page . I can't find the exact representation I made, they didn't send me a copy when I sent it off online, but it was along the lines of "I don't think the council has carried out their duty of ensuring the road signs are clear. By leaving the arrow on the road indicating I could turn right, it appears the Council are at fault and so I shouldn't have to pay the fine"...

Grateful for your advice.

This post has been edited by c01923u3mc12: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:29
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Scan50.pdf ( 428.79K ) Number of downloads: 189
 
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:26
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QUOTE (c01923u3mc12 @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:24) *
Hi Mick, Past, apologies for the very slow reponse. Attached is the rejection letter front page . I can't find the exact representation I made, they didn't send me a copy when I sent it off online, but it was along the lines of "I don't think the council has carried out their duty of ensuring the road signs are clear. By leaving the arrow on the road indicating I could turn right, it appears the Council are at fault and so I shouldn't have to pay the fine"...

Grateful for your advice.


no attachment


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c01923u3mc12
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:30
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:26) *
QUOTE (c01923u3mc12 @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:24) *
Hi Mick, Past, apologies for the very slow reponse. Attached is the rejection letter front page . I can't find the exact representation I made, they didn't send me a copy when I sent it off online, but it was along the lines of "I don't think the council has carried out their duty of ensuring the road signs are clear. By leaving the arrow on the road indicating I could turn right, it appears the Council are at fault and so I shouldn't have to pay the fine"...

Grateful for your advice.


no attachment


Now attached smile.gif
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 19:08
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QUOTE (c01923u3mc12 @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:30) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:26) *
QUOTE (c01923u3mc12 @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:24) *
Hi Mick, Past, apologies for the very slow reponse. Attached is the rejection letter front page . I can't find the exact representation I made, they didn't send me a copy when I sent it off online, but it was along the lines of "I don't think the council has carried out their duty of ensuring the road signs are clear. By leaving the arrow on the road indicating I could turn right, it appears the Council are at fault and so I shouldn't have to pay the fine"...

Grateful for your advice.


no attachment


Now attached smile.gif


we need to see it all


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c01923u3mc12
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 19:34
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Strangely system isn't letting me attach these directly. Here's the rest of the pages:

https://ibb.co/P5rtfFD
https://ibb.co/2yHz7LW
https://ibb.co/3pX61KK
https://ibb.co/K6YQ49r
https://ibb.co/PCWzfdf

Let me know if you need anything else.
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cp8759
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 21:18
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I don't really see any strong grounds of appeal, you could take it to the tribunal but it would be a bit of a gamble.


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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:00
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 21:18) *
I don't really see any strong grounds of appeal, you could take it to the tribunal but it would be a bit of a gamble.


i'd have a go but its not my money The PCN is defective it does not show a time of contravention (seconds are not required, but they are there so it must be accurate) and the right turn arrow could be misleading


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