Single justice Procedure Notice |
Single justice Procedure Notice |
Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:09
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 26 Feb 2020 Member No.: 108,036 |
Dear Forum,
Today I received an email notifying me, that I will receive a Single justice Procedure Notice as I have been unable to identify the driver for a speeding offence. 51mph in a 40mp zone. Actions taken. I received a NIP which I filled in with the name of a family member who I thought was the driver, signed and dated etc, and at the same time attached a letter requesting a photo to help matters. I received the photo. The photo is of the back and does not show the driver at all. The number plate on the print is too blurry to see fully but I imagine the original photo is clear. The summary unit ignored my NIP and just sent back the photo with another NIP (to me) demanding information on the driver. Obviously they received both, as they sent me the photo. I then emailed them outlining that I had in fact filled in the NIP. Having received the photo I also said that it doesn’t help identify the driver. I listed the potential other driver. Mentioned that I have put forward ‘reasonable diligence’ to identify the driver but as the photo doesn’t help, and my NIP was ignored, I’m unable to do anything further but please contact me. So now the status is that I will receive a Single Justice Proc Notice. I’ve checked my bank statements and they’re are no petrol purchases on the day or near, and I don’t commute and the car is hardly used by either driver. What should I do. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance. |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:09
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:20
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,781 Joined: 29 Oct 2008 Member No.: 23,623 |
Exactly what diligence have you exercised to try to establish who was driving? What were the circumstances that made doing so difficult?
You now face a choice. You can either plead guilty and face a fine of a week's net income (plus a 10% Victim Surcharge), £85 costs, six points, and an endorsement code that will see your insurance premiums enhanced for up to five years. The alternative is to defend the matter at trial. You have a statutory defence which says that you should not be guilty if you did not know who was driving and could not establish who was despite having exercised reasonable diligence. Whether you can convince a court of that depends very largely on what the circumstances were, hence my questions, above. Should you fail the same six points and endorsement will follow but your fine will be increased by 50% and you will face costs which will probably be £620. This post has been edited by NewJudge: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:21 |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:27
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,634 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
You have a statutory defence which says that you should not be guilty if you did not know who was driving and could not establish who was despite having exercised reasonable diligence. It’s not entirely clear whether he can or can’t identify the driver. It seems a name was put forward in the first response - the OP will need to confirm whether he qualified that reply in any way, such as “it might be” etc. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:33
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 26 Feb 2020 Member No.: 108,036 |
Thanks for the reply.
What other diligence should I apply. I can’t remember using it. I checked my statements and as mentioned no petrol purchases. The car is hardly used. I also obviously showed the photo to the other driver. I also complied with the law by filling in the NIP, which they ignored. I assume it’s too late to send a NIP to them, or phone them up and talk to them? You have a statutory defence which says that you should not be guilty if you did not know who was driving and could not establish who was despite having exercised reasonable diligence. It’s not entirely clear whether he can or can’t identify the driver. It seems a name was put forward in the first response - the OP will need to confirm whether he qualified that reply in any way, such as “it might be” etc. Hi there. The NIP was filled in exactly as per instructions on the form. A Name, address, signed and dated. They ignored that and just send me a photo, and demanding I identify the driver. |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:33
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,781 Joined: 29 Oct 2008 Member No.: 23,623 |
Just to be clear, it is not the NIP you are completing, it is the "Section 172 notice" requesting driver's details.
What exactly did you say on the return that you say they ignored? |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:35
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,634 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Hi there. The NIP was filled in exactly as per instructions on the form. A Name, address, signed and dated. They ignored that and just send me a photo, and demanding I identify the driver. However, you also asked for a photo, did you not? What, exactly, did you say in that request? -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:36
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 26 Feb 2020 Member No.: 108,036 |
Sorry, I filled in the 172 section of the form giving a name and address etc. There were no qualifying statements
The request for the photo was a separate note asking for a photo to help. This was stapled to the form. This post has been edited by Cap: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:40 |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:47
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,585 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Naming a driver and requesting help seems mutually exclusive? They have not taken it as unequivocal.
-------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:51
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 26 Feb 2020 Member No.: 108,036 |
Naming a driver and requesting help seems mutually exclusive? They have not taken it as unequivocal. Ok thanks. Do you think i should phone up the summary unit? The email was received today. Is it too late to fill in copy I have of the 172 and name myself? I haven’t received any official documents yet, just notification that I will receive a SJPN. This post has been edited by Cap: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 18:55 |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 19:06
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,581 Joined: 28 Mar 2010 Member No.: 36,528 |
The photo is of the back and does not show the driver at all. The number plate on the print is too blurry to see fully but I imagine the original photo is clear. So you cannot be sure it is your car? You cannot remember driving it but did not fill it up with petrol, was the location so far away that you would have had to fill up the car? You say you have shown the photo to the other possible driver, but not told us what they said, do they deny driving the car or think they might have? These questions are just for interest, the answers do not really matter now. You have committed the cardinal error in these matters of being truthful and saying you cannot be certain when certainty is what the police require and will prosecute you if you do not provide it. By asking for a photo at the same time as nominating another driver you indicated that you were in doubt about the driver you had nominated. Had you simply nominated a driver without equivocation, that driver would have been offered a course, provided this was not in Scotland and they were eligible, instead you are faced with some unattractive choices. 1. Maintain the stance that you have exercised reasonable diligence and plead not guilty. This is notoriously difficult in which to succeed and the penalty is not only 6 points and a large fine but costs with a guideline of £620 and a hike in your insurance premiums. 2. Plead guilty to the s.172 offence which will get you a 33% discount off the fine and costs of £80, but the 6 points and premium increase remain. 3. Assuming you have also have been or will be charged with the speeding offence, convince yourself that you were in fact the most likely driver and offer the prosecutor a guilty plea for the speeding provided the s.172 charge is dropped. That will get you 3 points, a smaller fine and £80 costs. No other options are now available. This post has been edited by Logician: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 19:07 -------------------- |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 19:06
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Naming a driver and requesting help seems mutually exclusive? They have not taken it as unequivocal. Ok thanks. Do you think i should phone up the summary unit? The email was received today. Is it too late to fill in copy I have of the 172 and name myself? I haven’t received any official documents yet, just notification that I will receive a SJPN. There's nothing to stop you trying, but experience suggest that once the police decide it's going to court, barring truly exceptional circumstances the case will go to court. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 19:08
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,585 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
I would say it is almost certainly too late - it’s a matter for the court now.
There’s a particular concern with your last post for which you may wish to seek professional advice before any contact. -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 19:20
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 26 Feb 2020 Member No.: 108,036 |
Thank you very much for your reply
I would say it is almost certainly too late - it’s a matter for the court now. There’s a particular concern with your last post for which you may wish to seek professional advice before any contact. Please could you expand on the bit that was concerning in my post? This post has been edited by Cap: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 19:14 |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 19:28
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,634 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Is it too late to fill in copy I have of the 172 and name myself? Hold on. You named a family member as the driver, which you’ve maintained up to now is your honest response as to who you thought was driving. Now, suddenly, you want to name yourself? What’s going on? You need to be careful you’re not admitting the s 172 offence (you did not name the driver) or you’re now suggesting perverting the course of justice. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 19:36
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 26 Feb 2020 Member No.: 108,036 |
Is it too late to fill in copy I have of the 172 and name myself? Hold on. You named a family member as the driver, which you’ve maintained up to now is your honest response as to who you thought was driving. Now, suddenly, you want to name yourself? What’s going on? You need to be careful you’re not admitting the s 172 offence (you did not name the driver) or you’re now suggesting perverting the course of justice. Yes I named a family member, who has denied driving. The incident wasn’t recent as it went through the registered keeper. I thought I had complied with the 172 but as mentioned the request for a photo at the same time obviously caused problems. I’m really not up to fighting anything through the courts, so if it means admitting guilt for the speeding and asking for them to drop the 172 charge, then I will do that. I don’t know at which point I should do that. Should I phone the unit and explain I thought I had complied, I really can’t remember but I will accept being the most likely driver. This post has been edited by Cap: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 19:38 |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 19:42
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,723 Joined: 3 Apr 2006 From: North Hampshire Member No.: 5,183 |
So did this family member receive their own S172 request? And if so did they return it saying they were not the driver?
If both of these are yes, then as far as the police is concerned no valid driver has been named. |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 19:44
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 763 Joined: 16 Jun 2010 From: sw11 Member No.: 38,303 |
Have a read / search around some threads in this sub forum and you will find the advice regarding a plea deal, however you need to be certain you were driving or else you could be in more trouble. To do the deal you would have to attend court.
-------------------- PePiPoo will likely close in October due to issues beyond the control of any contributor to this forum.
You are encouraged to seek advice at https://www.ftla.uk/speeding-and-other-criminal-offences/ where the vast majority of the experts here have moved over to already. |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 19:54
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 26 Feb 2020 Member No.: 108,036 |
No the named driver did not receive a 172. It seems the unit ignored it, and they just sent another one to me.
It seems me attaching a separate note just asking for a photo to help, had them ignore the 172 I had filled in according to the law. Have a read / search around some threads in this sub forum and you will find the advice regarding a plea deal, however you need to be certain you were driving or else you could be in more trouble. To do the deal you would have to attend court. Thanks. Does that mean I have to plead not guilty on the SJPN (when I receive it, i’ve only been notified via email. that I will receive one as I can’t identify the driver), then ask to attend court? To clarify, the SJPN is to do with the 172 not the speeding aspect. == Ok I think I get what will happen. I will get the SJPN, I will have to plead not guilty to get a court date. Then on the court day, go early. Ask an usher if I can plead guilty to the speeding if the 172 is dropped. If so, and reading, this seems common. Accept the points and costs. Im assuming it’s impossible to request this through the summary justice unit via phone? This post has been edited by Cap: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 20:03 |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 20:08
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,585 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
...had them ignore the 172 I had filled in according to the law. You could try that argument as a defence. They will almost certainly say your reply could not be considered unequivocal if asking for assistance from a photo. (Turning it around you could go to court and state the driver nomination cannot be used by the prosecution) I still maintain you seek advice. Whilst unlikely, you could get yourself on trial for something far more serious with the potential of a custodial sentence. This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 20:09 -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 20:09
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 763 Joined: 16 Jun 2010 From: sw11 Member No.: 38,303 |
If you haven’t been dual charged then it may be more difficult to do the deal.
-------------------- PePiPoo will likely close in October due to issues beyond the control of any contributor to this forum.
You are encouraged to seek advice at https://www.ftla.uk/speeding-and-other-criminal-offences/ where the vast majority of the experts here have moved over to already. |
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