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Code 21 - suspended bay (Merton), Contravention code 21: Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay
CCactus
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 00:15
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Hello,

On Friday 21 February 2020, I parked in a designated bay on Church Rd SW19.

I paid for parking via the RingGo App:
https://imgur.com/4MxQrvL

I returned to the car before the parking session had expired, to find I had received a PCN for parking in a suspended bay:
https://imgur.com/8VkK3Mb

https://imgur.com/GQBZuAD

https://imgur.com/1Dw2mAM

https://imgur.com/m4vw9P5

https://imgur.com/qBePnSJ

https://imgur.com/0EPDSaW

https://imgur.com/mlKcHyW

I did not realise I had parked in a suspended bay. The notice was attached to a traffic cone, which was not next to the suspended bay at the time I parked the car. It is not clear from the photographic evidence provided by the Council - the yellow sign can only be seen via its reflection on the car window... - however, the traffic cone used as support for the traffic suspension notice had been placed next to the bay by the time I returned to the car (possibly by the enforcement officer to enable him to issue a PCN...?).

The suspension shows start and end dates (18.02.20 to 21.02.20), but does not mention times.

There was no evidence of works being carried out at the time. So, without a suspension notice clearly displayed, it was not possible to guess that the bay may have been suspended. Being the last day of the suspension, the planned works were presumably complete and the contractor(s) had already left so the suspension was no longer necessary.

At the time of parking, all the designated bays were occupied by other cars, so there was no indication that parking in those bays might have been suspended.

The notice does not say whether or not the dates stated are included in the suspension or not.

I had parked 'in good faith' and paid for the parking, the parking receipt shows that the notice was issued before the expiry of the RingGo session.

The photographs provided by the Council do not show the door numbers on the street so the exact location is difficult to determine (in relation to the door numbers on the suspension notice).

So,
# Is the suspension notice valid (only indicates dates, no start and end times for the suspension)?

# Is it acceptable to display the suspension notice on a traffic cone that can be easily moved by anyone?

# Is the photographic evidence provided by the Council valid / sufficient to justify the issue of the PCN?

# What should I do?

Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to read the post.

RS
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post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 00:15
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 18:32
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HCA

The contravention is parked in a suspended bay. That is the only matter the OP has to address and on Their behalf you get to the crux. If the OP says there was no sign on the post the absent evidence to the contrary I will accept that,

Anyway your suggested draft gets to the crux of the matter the OP was not parked in the suspended area


A scenario I think perfectly possible. Some scrot moved the sign, the CEO comes along sees it and without reading carefully and checking the location serves a PCN but not for informal challenge where what HCA has written is more than enough


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CCactus
post Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 22:34
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 08:12) *
Still only a part story.

I can only go on evidence you've presented, including photos, or otherwise available e.g. GSV.

The traffic sign does not refer to RingGo, it directs the paying motorist to the P&D m/c.

So your story is at odds with this evidence.

And if you went from car to sign and then to m/c, then you could not have missed the suspension sign which was situated on the footway adjacent to your car as shown in the photos - the reflection is clear.

So, does the traffic sign now refer to paying by phone or do you need to review your account to align with what actually happened and not with what you wish had happened based on the potential defences posted here??


Some of the views of GSV are not up to date for the area. Here is a different one with the 'Pay by mobile 19304' sign:

https://imgur.com/n6Y9ead

This is the signed I checked when I parked. It is outside 5 Church Rd (John D Wood & Co Estate Agents). I went from the car parked outside no. 15 to no. 5.

The suspension was from no. 17 to 23, so on the other side.

I will try to get more photographs at the weekend.

Thank you. R
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 22:44
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QUOTE (CCactus @ Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 22:34) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 08:12) *
Still only a part story.

I can only go on evidence you've presented, including photos, or otherwise available e.g. GSV.

The traffic sign does not refer to RingGo, it directs the paying motorist to the P&D m/c.

So your story is at odds with this evidence.

And if you went from car to sign and then to m/c, then you could not have missed the suspension sign which was situated on the footway adjacent to your car as shown in the photos - the reflection is clear.

So, does the traffic sign now refer to paying by phone or do you need to review your account to align with what actually happened and not with what you wish had happened based on the potential defences posted here??


Some of the views of GSV are not up to date for the area. Here is a different one with the 'Pay by mobile 19304' sign:

https://imgur.com/n6Y9ead

This is the signed I checked when I parked. It is outside 5 Church Rd (John D Wood & Co Estate Agents). I went from the car parked outside no. 15 to no. 5.

The suspension was from no. 17 to 23, so on the other side.

I will try to get more photographs at the weekend.

Thank you. R


It will help if the council reject your challenge but I think you have enough now, clearly you were not in the suspended area HCA's draft or an amended version of your own should be fine

Don't stress over this

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 - 22:45


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hcandersen
post Sat, 29 Feb 2020 - 12:01
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OP, now that you have given that extra piece of info (that when you went to the sign there wasn't a suspension sign displayed) we have all we need. They didn't forget to place one there, they had no intention of placing one.

The full story is probably simple and touches on what PMB said.

The suspended area was in the NEXT parking place i.e. the one which starts at Jackson-Stops.
They used a cone to help them demarcate that area.
Someone moved the cone et voila wherever the cone lands an unsuspecting CEO thinks there's a suspension.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 - 12:01
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CCactus
post Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 12:46
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So the informal challenge was rejected...

This is the letter from the Council:
https://imgur.com/fsHzRv6

What should I do?

Thank you.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 12:57
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Wait for the notice to owner then one of us will draft a representation. If this gets to adjudication I can see you getting costs awarded


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CCactus
post Tue, 28 Apr 2020 - 23:22
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 25 Apr 2020 - 13:57) *
Wait for the notice to owner then one of us will draft a representation. If this gets to adjudication I can see you getting costs awarded


Thanks, much appreciated.

I am surprised and disappointed that the informal challenge has been dismissed. They haven't taken into account the fact that I was not parked in the suspension zone. Feels like bullying tactics...

Is it possible to get a rough idea of the costs if it gets to adjudication?

Are there costs associated with a formal challenge?

I am wondering whether I should just pay the reduced fine now to save myself the hassle and the expense of taking this further. Is it worth it?...
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hcandersen
post Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 06:30
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I am surprised and disappointed that the informal challenge has been dismissed. They haven't taken into account the fact that I was not parked in the suspension zone. Feels like bullying tactics...

Welcome to the world of council parking enforcement.

It's a good lesson for the future. Don't believe that everything that is said by a council is fair, reasoned, disinterested and unbiased.

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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 07:30
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 07:30) *
I am surprised and disappointed that the informal challenge has been dismissed. They haven't taken into account the fact that I was not parked in the suspension zone. Feels like bullying tactics...

Welcome to the world of council parking enforcement.

It's a good lesson for the future. Don't believe that everything that is said by a council is fair, reasoned, disinterested and unbiased.


I used to think it was all peanuts and monkey's but the Manchester bus lane late PCN fiasco of 18 months or so ago left me believing it can only be policy and practice hidden in the concept of plausible deniability


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Incandescent
post Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 08:22
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QUOTE (CCactus @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 00:22) *
Is it possible to get a rough idea of the costs if it gets to adjudication?

Are there costs associated with a formal challenge?

I am wondering whether I should just pay the reduced fine now to save myself the hassle and the expense of taking this further. Is it worth it?...

There are no additional costs when you go to adjudication, just the PCN penalty with no discount if you lose. Here you have a powerful case although it's always something of a gamble.
Unfortunately most people are like yourself, preferring to pay the discounted amount and not take the risk. That explains how councils make such large sums out of parking enforcement; the London councils are really coining it. Hopefully, we'll eventually get a government minister like Mr Pickles a few years ago who stopped the most blatant and borderline illegal practices.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 08:34
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As Inc says to continue the full penalty of £130 is in play, but based on your challenge and the rejection that sets out clearly the extent of the suspended area and the council photos that show you not to be in that suspended area, I just cannot see you losing this.

Have we checked, are you the registered keeper of the car, do you hold the v5c (logbook) and are all the address details up to date and correct, it is a good idea to check these now


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CCactus
post Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 15:01
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 09:34) *
As Inc says to continue the full penalty of £130 is in play, but based on your challenge and the rejection that sets out clearly the extent of the suspended area and the council photos that show you not to be in that suspended area, I just cannot see you losing this.

Have we checked, are you the registered keeper of the car, do you hold the v5c (logbook) and are all the address details up to date and correct, it is a good idea to check these now


My partner is the registered keeper and the address on the logbook is up to date.

This post has been edited by CCactus: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 15:01
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 15:19
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QUOTE (CCactus @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 16:01) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 09:34) *
As Inc says to continue the full penalty of £130 is in play, but based on your challenge and the rejection that sets out clearly the extent of the suspended area and the council photos that show you not to be in that suspended area, I just cannot see you losing this.

Have we checked, are you the registered keeper of the car, do you hold the v5c (logbook) and are all the address details up to date and correct, it is a good idea to check these now


My partner is the registered keeper and the address on the logbook is up to date.


Good you will need a letter of authority from your partner to act on their behalf. Something along the lines of


I am ( partners name) of (address) I have given permission to ( your name ) act as my representative in the matter of PCN number xxxxxxxxxxxxx all correspondence from him/her should be dealt with as if coming from myself


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CCactus
post Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 09:56
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https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4259303,-...8i8192?hl=en-GB

I took another look at the GSV. There are 3no. adjacent parking spaces between no. 17 and no. 25 Church Rd, with double yellow lines on either side (the silver peugeot on the left hand side of the GSV is parked on a double yellow line).

The Parking Suspension says: 'x4 bays, 2 bays outside 21-23 and 2 bays outside 17 Church Road...'

So the question is: Which 4no. bays were meant to be suspended according to the suspension notice?

I can see an argument against my allegation that I wasn't parked in the suspension zone. The notice is ambiguous re. door numbers, it is clear the three adjacent spaces are suspended, but where is the 4th suspended parking bay? Despite the ambiguity, there is little choice but to conclude that the space I was parked in was also suspended...

If the conclusion is that, despite the ambiguity of the notice, I was in fact parked in a suspended bay, then I would need another argument to challenge the PCN. And my case isn't as strong, is it?
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 12:54
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No I've just looked again you were parked outside 15 2 bays outside Jackson stropp (double fronted then the two bays outside 21 and 23

No one can promise you victory but this is as close as it gets wait for the NTO Even if you by some strange quirk did lose it will be August before you will have to pay save the cost of a cup of coffee a week till then and you will save the difference if not the full penalty

We will draft your representation and appeal for you. You are in good hands


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CCactus
post Sat, 2 May 2020 - 22:28
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 13:54) *
No I've just looked again you were parked outside 15 2 bays outside Jackson stropp (double fronted then the two bays outside 21 and 23

No one can promise you victory but this is as close as it gets wait for the NTO Even if you by some strange quirk did lose it will be August before you will have to pay save the cost of a cup of coffee a week till then and you will save the difference if not the full penalty

We will draft your representation and appeal for you. You are in good hands


I have circled the bays in these pictures (snapshots from GSV):
I can only see 3 bays outside 17-25:
https://imgur.com/U8W8EE0

Then the double yellow line and the first bay after the double yellow line, where I was parked (outside no. 15 'Tinc'):
https://imgur.com/HiRcEdP
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 08:42
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You have to decide if you trust us or not. No one can promise you a win but this is 90/10 in your favour

Lets look at the arguments .

You parked outside no 15 The sign for that bay is at the other end, you look there is no suspension sign so you pay (even if you know the location and tariff, the sign is wher you would be expected to look so this applies)

The sign is outside number 5 you are parked outside number 15 so even if you saw and reads a sign ( not properly positioned) you start counting from the lowest number 17 that is the shop in the next set of bays after the DYL. If the council miscounted the number of bays that's their problem the suspension starts at 17 and is ascending so bays to the right as you look at them

So bay you parked in not suspended.

Signs not adequate ( only one sign on a cone) that will not cut the mustard

Sign ambiguous

I just cannot see you losing this so stop worrying. Save the cost of a cup of coffee a week between now and when you would have to pay if by some quirk you did lose and you will save the penalty anyway. But when you win you've got £130 in you pocket you did not expect to have for a well earned treat


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CCactus
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 12:18
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Hi, we have now received the Notice to Owner, addressed to my partner who is the registered owner of the vehicle:

https://imgur.com/J1mkStP
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cp8759
post Mon, 1 Jun 2020 - 21:13
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I suspect PMB will pick this one up but if not, bump the thread in a week or so.


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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 2 Jun 2020 - 10:23
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 1 Jun 2020 - 22:13) *
I suspect PMB will pick this one up but if not, bump the thread in a week or so.


Yes but I have quite a few on ATM so the next week I will be busy after that I will draft something for you


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