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PCN for entering & stopping in a Box Junction, I intend to put up a fight!!!
Christina P
post Sat, 4 Oct 2008 - 12:41
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Hi everyone

I received a PCN for entering and stopping in a box junction this morning.

Have been driving for many years I have been used to rolling, sometimes very slowly, when stuck in a junction box. Therefore, I never actually stop, I just roll slow enough until the cars ahead move up.

I intend to challenge this PCN on the grounds that I never actually stopped.

Here are pictures which they have taken -




I have a couples of questions -

1) Does anyone know what the numbers in the top right mean? The number starting 09, I presume that these are frames. Does anyone know how many miliseconds each unit represents. I thought that I could use this in saying how far I moved between each photograph.

2) Has anyone made any successful claims similiar to this one?

If you spot any problems or have any suggestions with my case please let me know.


Thanks everyone, in advance.
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post Sat, 4 Oct 2008 - 12:41
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bama
post Sat, 4 Oct 2008 - 13:02
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arrange to go and see thevideo. the stills cannot show the actual contravntion. just make sure there were no stationary vehicles blocking your exit when you entered.


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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markie
post Sat, 4 Oct 2008 - 13:19
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Hmm, the stills you have posted seem to indicate slow moving traffic/traffic jam, if you entered the box (albeit rolling very slowly) while your exit was not clear then you best bet is to show us the PCN (all of it) and where the box is. There may be something wrong with either of those.

This post has been edited by markie: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 - 13:21


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LB Islington 0 - 1 Markie76
LB Camden 1 - 2 Markie76
TFL 0 - 1 Markie76 (on aggregate uncontested PCNs 2 -1 grrr!)


*** Anything I write on these forums is merely an expression of my own personal opinion and is not a substitute for advice from a recognised legal professional or professional person adequately trained/qualified in the subject matter. ***
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Teufel
post Sat, 4 Oct 2008 - 13:29
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if you dont stop there is no contravention
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Christina P
post Sat, 4 Oct 2008 - 13:47
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Thanks for all your replies.

Heres the PCN and view of the junction box


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Glacier2
post Sat, 4 Oct 2008 - 13:58
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There should be a few more pages to the PCN, it is important that we see them all.
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Christina P
post Sat, 4 Oct 2008 - 14:01
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Thats it really.

On the back of the front page are payment options. and the second sheet is the form for making representations
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southpaw82
post Sat, 4 Oct 2008 - 14:25
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And councils often make mistakes on those pages. People rarely ask to see something if it's not relevant.


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Glacier2
post Sat, 4 Oct 2008 - 14:26
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They are all very important. These often contain legal flaws. It is important that we see them all.
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Christina P
post Sun, 5 Oct 2008 - 17:15
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Thanks

Heres the rest of the pages -






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johnjames
post Sun, 5 Oct 2008 - 18:12
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has not anyone noticed "28 days from the date of this notice" should be 28 days from service of this notice also the NTO is flawed with regards to appeals both points on the NTO invalidate the PCN/NTO
Note should be 28 days from the service of the notice. Did you keep the envelope? Should have come 1st class post? Also regardless of wether or not the section applies taken without consent is basically saying only when stolen there are other circumstances as well, if I say to the wife can I take her car and she says no then this is not consent she does not have to report it as theft though. Just because the keys are in the house does not mean that a person can take a car!

Also says "you maybe able to make representations" this is implicating that you may have no right when you have dodgy 3 points on the PCN/NTO


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NOTICE The content of this post and of any replies to it may assist in or relate to the formulation of strategy tactics etc in a legal action. This post and any replies to it should therefore be assumed to be legally privileged and therefore must not be disclosed, copied, quoted, discussed, used or referred to outside of the PePiPoo forum on which it was originally posted additionally it must not be disclosed, copied, quoted, discussed, used or referred to by any person or organisation other than a member of PePiPoo appropriately paid up and in full compliance with the PePiPoo terms of use for the forum on which it was originally posted. The PePiPoo terms of use can be found at http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=boardrules. For the avoidance of doubt, if you are reading this material in any form other than an on-line HTML resource directly and legitimately accessed via a URL commencing "http://forums.pepipoo.com" then it has been obtained by improper means and you are probably reading it in breach of legal privilege. If the material you are reading does not include this notice then it has been obtained improperly and you are probably reading it in breach of legal privilege. Your attention is drawn to the Written Standards for the Conduct of Professional Work issued by the Bar Standards Board particularly under heading 7, "Documents". Any such use of this post without use will be deemed to have breached copyright and other relevant laws of the United Kingdom. Othe use than on this forum including printing of posts is strictly prohibited without the written signed consent of the owner who you can send a request to by private message.
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southpaw82
post Sun, 5 Oct 2008 - 20:07
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QUOTE (johnjames @ Sun, 5 Oct 2008 - 19:12) *
has not anyone noticed "28 days from the date of this notice"


Yes... which is correct for a PCN issued under LLATFL 2003 rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
should be 28 days from service of this notice


No, it shouldn't. Read the Act.


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Guest_Anorak_*
post Sun, 5 Oct 2008 - 22:41
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 5 Oct 2008 - 21:07) *
QUOTE (johnjames @ Sun, 5 Oct 2008 - 19:12) *
has not anyone noticed "28 days from the date of this notice"


Yes... which is correct for a PCN issued under LLATFL 2003 rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
should be 28 days from service of this notice


No, it shouldn't. Read the Act.


According to Schedule 12 of the TMA 2004 Sections 4-7, 14, 15, Schedule 1,part of Schedule 2, Schedule 3 and Section 12 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 (c.iii) have been repealed. It is the repealed Section 4 (8) that applies to the wording of the PCN.

I would have thought, considering that it is the repealed Section 4 of this act which relates to Penalty Charge Notices, that the PCN is not enforceable and Lambeth have not updated the wording of their PCN's along with the introduction of the TMA 2004. Also notice the part about 'Challenging this Penalty Charge Notice' refers to Schedule 1(1) of the 2003 Act but according to the TMA 2004, Schedule 1 has been repealed.

Here is the link to the repeals from the TMA 2004
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/ukpga...018_en_19#sch12
Here is the link to the London Local Authorities & Transport for London Act 2003 (c.iii)
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/localact2003/ukla_20030003_en_1

This post has been edited by Anorak: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 - 23:15
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johnjames
post Mon, 6 Oct 2008 - 08:12
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Point taken but it still is non compliant as it "fetters" with regards to consent. (Sorry for the mistake been concentraing that much on outer London did not consider this, but this would be known as a regulation 10 PCN right? IE PCN/NTO ?


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NOTICE The content of this post and of any replies to it may assist in or relate to the formulation of strategy tactics etc in a legal action. This post and any replies to it should therefore be assumed to be legally privileged and therefore must not be disclosed, copied, quoted, discussed, used or referred to outside of the PePiPoo forum on which it was originally posted additionally it must not be disclosed, copied, quoted, discussed, used or referred to by any person or organisation other than a member of PePiPoo appropriately paid up and in full compliance with the PePiPoo terms of use for the forum on which it was originally posted. The PePiPoo terms of use can be found at http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=boardrules. For the avoidance of doubt, if you are reading this material in any form other than an on-line HTML resource directly and legitimately accessed via a URL commencing "http://forums.pepipoo.com" then it has been obtained by improper means and you are probably reading it in breach of legal privilege. If the material you are reading does not include this notice then it has been obtained improperly and you are probably reading it in breach of legal privilege. Your attention is drawn to the Written Standards for the Conduct of Professional Work issued by the Bar Standards Board particularly under heading 7, "Documents". Any such use of this post without use will be deemed to have breached copyright and other relevant laws of the United Kingdom. Othe use than on this forum including printing of posts is strictly prohibited without the written signed consent of the owner who you can send a request to by private message.
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bama
post Mon, 6 Oct 2008 - 10:34
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PCN clearly states it is for a moving contravention so it cannot be a TMA reg 10 - AIUI TMA not implemented yet for moving contraventions. Which makes the point above about repeals of sections of London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 rather interesting. Must admit I have not looked at this latter Act in detail but if TMA, by virtue of the repeals mentioned, cut the ground from underneath it it would be huge would it not.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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johnjames
post Mon, 6 Oct 2008 - 11:18
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bama

Talks about but cannot find it at the mo a regulation 10 PCN is the one issued by post and what is supposed to be on it. Also note that when statute says"may" = "must" and also "regard" = must take into consideration doing. When these words are spoken under statute they have a totally different meaning. IE when it refers to section 87 it means must take notice of the guidance so if they say it does not matter Section 87 actually overides as it stated must so it is a "must"

For instance in criminal law if you use the words "it would appear that" to them it means the same to us "he did this." This is where the ordinary man gets caught out and councils.

Here is an example:
PART 5 continued

Page 8 of 19
Previous Next
First page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Last page
70 Sections 66 to 69: supplementary (1) In section 139 of the 1980 Act, in subsection (11) for “, section 140 and section 140A” there is substituted “and section 140”.
(2) After section 140B of that Act there is inserted—
“140C Regulations under sections 140A and 140B Nothing shall be taken to prevent the imposition of charges by both regulations under section 140A and regulations under section 140B in respect of the same builder’s skip at the same time.”
(3) After section 171B of that Act there is inserted—
“171C Regulations under sections 171A and 171B Nothing shall be taken to prevent the imposition of charges by both regulations under section 171A and regulations under section 171B in respect of the same structure, things or excavation at the same time.”
(4) In section 325 of that Act (provisions as to regulations), in subsection (2A)—
(a) in paragraph (a), after “140A” there is inserted “or 140B”;
(b) for paragraphs (b) and © there is substituted—
“(b) the first regulations for the purposes of section 171A or 171B as they apply in relation to the erection of relevant structures, or
© the first regulations for the purposes of section 171A or 171B as they apply in relation to the deposit of building materials, rubbish or other things and the making of temporary excavations,”.
Guidance as to safety precautions

71 Guidance to local highway authorities as to safety precautions In section 174 of the 1980 Act (precautions to be taken by persons executing works in streets), after subsection (1) there is inserted—
“(1A) The Secretary of State may give guidance to local highway authorities as to the discharge by them of their obligations under subsection (1)(a) and (b) where they are executing works for road purposes.
(1B) A local highway authority must in executing any works for road purposes have regard to any guidance given under subsection (1A).
(1C) In subsections (1A) and (1B) “works for road purposes” has the same meaning as in Part 3 of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991.”
Part 6

Civil enforcement of traffic contraventions

Civil penalties for road traffic contraventions

72 Civil penalties for road traffic contraventions (1) The appropriate national authority may make provision by regulations for or in connection with—
(a) the imposition of penalty charges in respect of road traffic contraventions that—
(i) are subject to civil enforcement (see section 73), and
(ii) are committed in an area that is a civil enforcement area for contraventions of that description (see section 74), and
(b) the payment of such penalty charges.
(2) The regulations shall include provision specifying the person or persons by whom a penalty charge in respect of a contravention is to be paid (who may be the owner of the vehicle involved in the contravention, its driver at the time of the contravention or any other appropriate person).
(3) The regulations shall include provision in respect of any description of conduct for which a penalty charge may be imposed—
(a) prohibiting criminal proceedings or the issuing of a fixed penalty notice in respect of conduct of that description, or
(b) securing that a penalty charge is not required to be paid, or is refunded, where the conduct is the subject of criminal proceedings or of a fixed penalty notice.
(4) The regulations may include provision prohibiting the imposition of a penalty charge except on the basis of—
(a) a record produced by an approved device, or
(b) information given by a civil enforcement officer as to conduct observed by him.
(5) The regulations may—
(a) specify exemptions from penalty charges, and
(b) make provision for discounts or surcharges, or both.
73 Contraventions subject to civil enforcement (1) Schedule 7 specifies the road traffic contraventions that are subject to civil enforcement.
(2) These are—
(a) parking contraventions (see Part 1 of the Schedule);
(b) bus lane contraventions (see Part 2 of the Schedule);
© London lorry ban contraventions (see Part 3 of the Schedule);
(d) moving traffic contraventions (see Part 4 of the Schedule).
(3) Regulations under this Part of this Act may make different provision in relation to different descriptions of contravention.
(4) The appropriate national authority may by regulations make such consequential amendment of Schedule 7 as appears to the authority to be required in consequence of the amendment, replacement or revocation of any provision of subordinate legislation referred to in that Schedule.
74 Civil enforcement areas (1) Schedule 8 makes provision—
(a) as to the areas that are civil enforcement areas for the purposes of different descriptions of road traffic contravention, and
(b) as to the meaning of “enforcement authority” in relation to road traffic contraventions committed in a civil enforcement area.
(2) In that Schedule—
Part 1 makes provision for Greater London, and
Part 2 makes provision for the rest of England and Wales.
75 Power to require authority to apply for civil enforcement powers (1) The appropriate national authority may by notice in writing under this section (a “notice to apply”) require a local authority to make an application under paragraph 8 of Schedule 8 for an order designating the whole or part of the local authority’s area as a civil enforcement area for parking contraventions.
(2) The notice must specify—
(a) the date by which the local authority is to make the application (“the application date”),
(b) the latest date by which the application must request that the order comes into force (“the in-force date”), and
© the area in respect of which the application is to be made.

Now the burning question about this is does it actually mean that if there was DPE powers were they automatically transffered? If so where does it say this. The only thing it states that an area designated as a DPZ in automatically classed as a CEA. So should not have every council applied for powers under the TMA 2004? Statute only gives them power under DPE?



Incidentally that TRO refers to schedule 9 there is no Schedule 9 see my post in bad boys & girls also have the OCR scan of it now.


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NOTICE The content of this post and of any replies to it may assist in or relate to the formulation of strategy tactics etc in a legal action. This post and any replies to it should therefore be assumed to be legally privileged and therefore must not be disclosed, copied, quoted, discussed, used or referred to outside of the PePiPoo forum on which it was originally posted additionally it must not be disclosed, copied, quoted, discussed, used or referred to by any person or organisation other than a member of PePiPoo appropriately paid up and in full compliance with the PePiPoo terms of use for the forum on which it was originally posted. The PePiPoo terms of use can be found at http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=boardrules. For the avoidance of doubt, if you are reading this material in any form other than an on-line HTML resource directly and legitimately accessed via a URL commencing "http://forums.pepipoo.com" then it has been obtained by improper means and you are probably reading it in breach of legal privilege. If the material you are reading does not include this notice then it has been obtained improperly and you are probably reading it in breach of legal privilege. Your attention is drawn to the Written Standards for the Conduct of Professional Work issued by the Bar Standards Board particularly under heading 7, "Documents". Any such use of this post without use will be deemed to have breached copyright and other relevant laws of the United Kingdom. Othe use than on this forum including printing of posts is strictly prohibited without the written signed consent of the owner who you can send a request to by private message.
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Guest_Anorak_*
post Mon, 6 Oct 2008 - 11:25
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QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 6 Oct 2008 - 11:34) *
PCN clearly states it is for a moving contravention so it cannot be a TMA reg 10 - AIUI TMA not implemented yet for moving contraventions. Which makes the point above about repeals of sections of London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 rather interesting. Must admit I have not looked at this latter Act in detail but if TMA, by virtue of the repeals mentioned, cut the ground from underneath it it would be huge would it not.


I agree Bama....it could be huge...

..That's why I'm concerned that I must be missing some important point and must be wrong in my assumption that this PCN is invalid due to the repeals in the TMA. It just seems crazy that Lambeth would make such a mistake but the repeals section in the TMA is quite clear. Please can others take a look at the links I posted above and confirm their views on the repeals?

Bama...The TMA 2004 does contain in Schedule 7 under Part 4, details about Civil Enforcement and moving traffic Contraventions. Not sure where they fit in but they may be of some use.

Here is the link
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/ukpga...0018_en_15#sch7





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bama
post Mon, 6 Oct 2008 - 11:33
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TMA is a fkuc up (legal definition) - there remains the possibility, until disproved, that TMA has cut the ground from under issuance of PCNs such as this. lets face it of it was so then everyone on the scammer side would be sworn to secrecy.
I just don't enough about the London Act(s)... and am not an eagle. TMA did undercut several other things so one more would not be a surprise.

TMA
Trafiic
Mis-management
Act


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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phantomcrusader
post Mon, 6 Oct 2008 - 11:58
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might be a good idea to comtact the local lambeth paper and raise the point with them about the repeals and let them investigate. if the tma 2004 doid repeal important sections then how many pcn's would become invalid and were invalid when people payed up. get the paper to do a freedom of info to see if the bosses exchanged emails or meetings and kept it hidden as bama says would be likely.
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bama
post Mon, 6 Oct 2008 - 12:31
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For some reason the version on Statutelaw is unrevised (doesn't show changes). thats a tad unusal isn't it ?

now this has me more confused
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/localact2008/ukla_20080003_en_1

At first glance/scan it seems to be amending stuff repealed by TMA.

also.
the citation and commencemnet is interesting reading. Brough Councils can choose the "Appointed Day".

This post has been edited by bama: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 - 12:43


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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