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Appealed PCN by email => PCN posted to old address => notice of enforcement (debt collection) received
Obsidian58
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 13:46
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Hello all,

I am new to this forum - hoping I've included all necessary details and am not repeating details of a previous post. Please let me know if any more info is required. Many thanks to any responders in advance!

On 1.1.21 a PCN for a traffic violation (see attachment) was generated by Islington Parking and Traffic Services whilst I was driving in a hire vehicle. The hire company (Zipcar) sent me an email with details of the PCN on 19.1.21 and charged a nominal handling fee. I appealed the PCN (with helpful information from another PePiPoo post) by email with Islington Traffic & Parking Services on 21.1.21. I received a reply from their team on 2.3.21 explaining the reason for the PCN (and confusing signage which had led to the contravention), but also stating the below:

>>I can see from your file that the Hire Company has contacted us and requested that we transfer liability of the PCN to you. We have carried this transfer out today and a PCN will be sent to you in the post. As your email was sent before the new PCN was issued, I am unable to treat your appeal as formal representations. If you wish to contest this matter further, please carefully read the PCN and return it to us stating why you think the PCN should be cancelled.<<

I acknowledged by email on 10.3.21 and said that I would await the PCN in the post and appeal when I received it.

I did not receive a PCN by post (and therefore could not appeal again) but instead have just yesterday received a Notice of Enforcement for collection of £278 (£203 debt + £75 compliance stage fee) with regard to this PCN.

I phoned CDER (debt enforcement agency) this morning, explaining that I had not received a PCN by post. The agent was very blunt, stated a very old London address (at which I resided more than 4 years ago) and said that the matter had gone to Northampton County Court and the "taking control" process would begin in three days' time. I asked how the agency had acquired my current address, in Oxford. The reply was by public tracking and tracing. I was advised to take the issue up with the car hire company but all I could do to prevent the debt collectors arriving at my property at this time was to pay the fee.

I have subsequently spoken with Zipcar twice - two agents have verbally confirmed that the correspondence address they hold for me is a recent Oxford address (where all post is received and opened). I have written to Zipcar's violations team for clarification of exactly which address was provided to the issuer of this PCN.

Would be very grateful for any advice as to whether I can put debt collection visit on hold (and prevent extra fees accruing) whilst I look into this and if at all possible recover my right to appeal! Perhaps with a TEC form?

This post has been edited by Obsidian58: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 13:52
Attached File(s)
Attached File  f76dcf7b_c2d0_4012_82bc_3b8fa66c711f.pdf ( 645.03K ) Number of downloads: 90
 
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post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 13:46
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cp8759
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 14:16
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Does this relate to a previous post?


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Obsidian58
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 15:15
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A search revealed a few posts relating to PCNs sent to old addresses, but not involving a hired vehicle
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cp8759
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 15:18
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Wait for Neil B to comment, but I think we need to get to the bottom of where the council got your old address first.


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Obsidian58
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 15:39
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Thank you, will do.
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Neil B
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 15:48
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QUOTE (Obsidian58 @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 14:46) *
a very old London address (at which I resided more than 4 years ago)

So that's likely the address Zip gave Islington.

How would Zip have that address? I think only you can tell us.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Obsidian58
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 16:36
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This is what I am trying to establish. The London address is one that I used to set up the account over four years ago. Am waiting for response from their violations team to know how/which information was provided to Islington council.
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Neil B
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 17:06
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QUOTE (Obsidian58 @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 14:46) *
I have subsequently spoken with Zipcar twice - two agents have verbally confirmed that the correspondence address they hold for me is a recent Oxford address (where all post is received and opened).

Do you have a record of how and when Zip were made aware of the Oxford address?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Tipthemout
post Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 17:21
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Did you update your address with Zipcar after moving, or have they still got your old address? Whatever one they hold will be the one they gave the council.
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Obsidian58
post Thu, 25 Nov 2021 - 21:59
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 17:06) *
QUOTE (Obsidian58 @ Wed, 24 Nov 2021 - 14:46) *
I have subsequently spoken with Zipcar twice - two agents have verbally confirmed that the correspondence address they hold for me is a recent Oxford address (where all post is received and opened).

Do you have a record of how and when Zip were made aware of the Oxford address?


Thanks all for your replies.

Zip were made aware of the Oxford address at some point in 2019. I have asked their team to confirm in writing exactly when. Suffice to say it was long before this PCN was issued.

I do now have written confirmation from Zip that their postal correspondence address is always the same as the billing address kept on file (i.e. the Oxford address). What I am still waiting for is a reply from their Violations team in response to my request for confirmation of which address they supplied to the issuer of the PCN.

I am concerned that time is running out - the debt collectors have warned that they will begin actions to "take control" on 27/11. If I have not heard from Zip by tomorrow afternoon I feel it may be easiest to eat humble pie and pay up (much as I would rather not!), simply to avoid further fees.

Am I within my rights to barter with them for more time while I get to the bottom of this?
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Neil B
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 14:42
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There is an application you can make to the court (TEC) to reset the matter >
Out of Time application and you'll find it discussed in many bailiff threads.

But it is not advisable to do so until you have all the facts as councils can and do readily object to these.

Your summing up, that it may be best to pay before fees increase, is quite correct imho.

There is nothing to stop you making such an application after payment and, unlike your present situation,
There would be no pressure of a time limit.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Obsidian58
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 15:00
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A brief update:

After a frustrating conversation with Zipcar this morning, I have received the following email from their team:

>>Thank you for your email.

Please note that we have already transferred liability of the PCN IZ16802723 to yourself. Due to security concerns we can only pass on your registered billing address, which we have done so.

Members are responsible for providing and maintaining current email, mobile phone, preferred search address, mailing address and other account information.

I'm afraid at this stage we have no further information to give to you, please feel free to contact them directly regarding this matter. <<

My registered billing address with Zipcar on 1.1.21 was the Oxford address.

I have spoken with Islington council just now who confirmed that Zipcar sent them the old London address in order to post the PCN. The agent recommended I complete a PE3, which if accepted would retract the warrant (reverting to original penalty charge).

I am considering the following options:

1) Pay the fees and complain to Zipcar asking for compensation (I'm fairly sure this will be unsuccessful). If I pay the fee is there a way to pay £203 to Northampton County Court or Islington Council and avoid the "compliance stage" (bailiff's £75) fee?

2) Contact the TEC and complete the PE3 today. This will need to be signed by a court officer (which I may or may not be able to arrange on short notice today). I do not expect a response from the TEC before the bailiffs have advised they will 'take control'. If bailiffs do arrive at my current address tomorrow, can I refuse them entry on grounds that I have sent off a PE3 and am waiting for a response?
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Obsidian58
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 15:16
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 14:42) *
There is an application you can make to the court (TEC) to reset the matter >
Out of Time application and you'll find it discussed in many bailiff threads.

But it is not advisable to do so until you have all the facts as councils can and do readily object to these.

Your summing up, that it may be best to pay before fees increase, is quite correct imho.

There is nothing to stop you making such an application after payment and, unlike your present situation,
There would be no pressure of a time limit.


Thank you for your advice, Neil B.

Once I have made payment would the matter not be closed (i.e. what would making an OOT application be able to achieve)?

This post has been edited by Obsidian58: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 15:18
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Neil B
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 15:35
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QUOTE (Obsidian58 @ Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 16:16) *
Once I have made payment would the matter not be closed (i.e. what would making an OOT application be able to achieve)?

If you are able to make a successful OOT the money would be refunded but the PCN would still be live.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Enceladus
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 16:51
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The original PCN as issued to Zipcar (Avis Budget Uk Ltd) appears to be still live on Islington's site. Value outstanding of £203 and status "Warrant Issued".

Surely Islington should have accepted the Zipcar representations, cancelled the original PCN, issued a fresh PCN to the OP at the address provided by Zipcar, on or shortly after the 2nd March 2021? That being the date Islington say they transferred liability. The fresh PCN, regardless of where it was posted to, should have a fresh serial number.

It therefore seems possible that CDER actually have a warrant naming Avis Budget Ltd. at their address and that cannot be enforced against you at your address.

I suggest you ring the TEC and see can you establish;
that the warrant of control was registered naming you,
when exactly it was it was registered,
at what address,
was the warrant ever re-registered to your current address?

Please report back.


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hcandersen
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 17:15
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very old London address (at which I resided more than 4 years ago)

Zip were made aware of the Oxford address at some point in 2019. (why 2 years after the event?)

Something's not right.


I think this is still the authoritative view held by ETA:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...her%20cases.pdf

OP, please focus on the issue of addresses and hiring agreement with current details of you and the car.


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Obsidian58
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 19:45
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Thank you Neil B, Enceladus and hcandersen for your input.

---

In reply:

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 16:51) *
The original PCN as issued to Zipcar (Avis Budget Uk Ltd) appears to be still live on Islington's site. Value outstanding of £203 and status "Warrant Issued".

Surely Islington should have accepted the Zipcar representations, cancelled the original PCN, issued a fresh PCN to the OP at the address provided by Zipcar, on or shortly after the 2nd March 2021? That being the date Islington say they transferred liability. The fresh PCN, regardless of where it was posted to, should have a fresh serial number.

It therefore seems possible that CDER actually have a warrant naming Avis Budget Ltd. at their address and that cannot be enforced against you at your address.

I suggest you ring the TEC and see can you establish;
that the warrant of control was registered naming you,
when exactly it was it was registered,
at what address,
was the warrant ever re-registered to your current address?

Please report back.


Thank you for making me aware of the live PCN status on Islington's site. I agree that it is strange to see the same PCN number listed here when their email to me on 10.3.21 specifically mentioned a new PCN (presumably associated with a new PCN number):
>>I can see from your file that the Hire Company has contacted us and requested that we transfer liability of the PCN to you. We have carried this transfer out today and a PCN will be sent to you in the post. As your email was sent before the new PCN was issued, I am unable to treat your appeal as formal representations. If you wish to contest this matter further, please carefully read the PCN and return it to us stating why you think the PCN should be cancelled.<<

In addition, I have spoken to CDER just now to confirm some of the details you mentioned. They kindly shared this sequence of events:

1) Warrant of control was indeed registered naming me (so Zipcar did transfer liability), applied for by Islington Council on 6.9.21
2) Warrant of control was registered at Folgate St, London (moved out in October 2017) address. Therefore despite Zipcar claiming that the only correspondence address they can share (for security reasons) is my billing address (in Oxford), this is clearly not true. I lived at a different London address between my time at Folgate St and moving to Oxford, and updated with Zipcar after both moves.
3) Notice of enforcement was served by CEDR group on Folgate St address on 7.9.21 => an enforcement agent attended the property on 11.10.21
4) Warrant of control updated with my current Oxford address on 17.11.21

---

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 17:15) *
very old London address (at which I resided more than 4 years ago)

Zip were made aware of the Oxford address at some point in 2019. (why 2 years after the event?)

Something's not right.


I think this is still the authoritative view held by ETA:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...her%20cases.pdf

OP, please focus on the issue of addresses and hiring agreement with current details of you and the car.


Thanks hcandersen, I moved to Oxford in early 2019 and updated my address with Zipcar shortly thereafter.

---

Speaking with the CDER agent just now, there is currently no enforcement agent assigned to my property so it does not appear that I am in imminent danger of an enforcement visit in the early hours of tomorrow morning. Perhaps this gives me a bit more time to submit PE2+3 forms for TEC consideration.

Alternatively CDER have offered payment in instalments - one half of the £278 now and the other half in a month's time. Am I right in thinking I would know the outcome of an OOT submission before that time has elapsed?
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Neil B
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 20:28
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QUOTE (Obsidian58 @ Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 20:45) *
Perhaps this gives me a bit more time to submit PE2+3 forms for TEC consideration.

Alternatively CDER have offered payment in instalments - one half of the £278 now and the other half in a month's time. Am I right in thinking I would know the outcome of an OOT submission before that time has elapsed?

No, 6-8 weeks.
An OOT would normally suspend enforcement but you entering into an agreement could complicate that.

What would you currently put on a PE2 that you can be certain of?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 20:30


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Obsidian58
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 22:06
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Thanks Neil B for the timings and yes I see your point - better to make full payment to avoid any risk of confusion/lingering bailiff involvement whilst TEC are processing.

Here is a proposed draft of a PE2 - very grateful for any comments:

This PCN was generated on 1.1.21 when I was driving a vehicle hired by Zipcar (subsidiary of Avis Budget Group). I was advised of the PCN by Zipcar by email, and emailed Islington Council Traffic Services as requested, with an appeal to the PCN. On 10.3.21 Islington responded to advise that my email could not be treated as an appeal as liability had been transferred from Zipcar to me and therefore a new PCN would be sent out by post. I acknowledged this email (please see email conversation attached).

I have confirmed with Islington Council that they sent the PCN to ### Folgate St, E1 London. This is an address at which I have not resided for over four years, which Zipcar provided to Islington Council, despite Zipcar subsequently confirming to me that due to security concerns they only ever pass on clients' registered billing address for correspondence, which in my case at the time of the contravention was ### Oxford, where all post received was opened (see attached email correspondence with Zipcar - N.B. I am awaiting Zipcar's written confirmation that my billing address was updated long before the PCN was generated, of which I am confident).

Unfortunately I did not receive the PCN by post and instead received a notice of enforcement on 23.11.21 at my current Oxford address, dated 17.11.21.
In subsequent conversation with CEDR Group (debt collectors) I have determined that:
1) Islington Council applied to Northampton County Court for a warrant of control on 6.9.21, registered in my name at ### Folgate St, E1 London
2) A notice of enforcement was served by CEDR group on Folgate St address on 7.9.21, and an enforcement agent attended the property on 11.10.21
3) The warrant of control was updated with my current Oxford address on 17.11.21

Despite Zipcar claiming that the only correspondence address they can share (for security reasons) is my billing address (in Oxford), this is not true. In their communication with Islington Council regarding this matter they have shared an obsolete address which has meant that I was unaware of these proceedings and could not formally appeal the PCN within the statutory time frame, which I would have done had I received the PCN by post (as I have done in past).

This is the first time I have been sent a notice of enforcement and on the above grounds I respectfully request you grant my application to file a Statutory Declaration Out of Time.

This post has been edited by Obsidian58: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 22:11
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Neil B
post Fri, 26 Nov 2021 - 23:48
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My view, expressed in post#11 remains the same.

See what others say.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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