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Private Parking Ticket for OWNED Parking Space, Received county court claim for parking in our own space
Should I be confident to take this to Court?
Should I be confident to take this to Court & challenge the Claimant?
Yes [ 6 ] ** [85.71%]
No [ 1 ] ** [14.29%]
Total Votes: 7
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hope8861
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 09:19
Post #1


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My Fiance (Mr Hope) is the property owner for the parking
space which I have been issued this ticket for. I park in this
space on a regular basis since August 2017 when I work away in
London. Mr Hope on my arrival personally handed over the
permit for the parking space, and witnessed myself place this on
the dashboard of the vehicle. Unknown to myself & the Property
owner- when I have closed the vehicle it seems the wind has caught
the permit and blown it down the side of the vehicle seat.

Upon receiving the ticket & letters from the claimants Legal Rep,
we were advised by the Property Management company who support
this challenge to claim it via the claimants website
http://parkingandpropertymanagement.co.uk/appeal.my.pcn/ which we
did not receive a response from the claimant as I understand the
Property Management company were also going to discuss this with
the claimant (email can be provided). Believing this had been
resolved, we now challenge this county court claim. By being given
approval from the Property owner, who supports this challenge of
unreasonableness. My vehicle has been at the property
regularly since August 2017, with no issues or other parking fines
and believe the claimant should be more reasonable in reviewing
appeals when the case is resulted by a human mistake. The claimant
will have seen the vehicle various times previously. I do not as
such contest the ticket itself, but the unreasonable nature of
which the claimant is unwilling to review a case based on genuine
mistake.

The permits issued by the claimant do not come with any support to
secure the permits in the vehicles which I have now purchased
myself to not present the claimant another opportunity to issue a
parking for essentially parking in an owned space who I had
approval from.
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post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 09:19
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 19:28
Post #21


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GET THAT CLAIM ACKNOWLEDGED. Now. You're burning time you don't have.

The defence is that you cannot possibly have entered a contract as they have nothing to offer. You own the land. It's yours. They can't say "park here fir £100 unless you show a permit" as you can already park

The PPC KNEW or SHOULD HAVE KNOWN leaseholders had rights there, and just didn't bother to check

Get out of here onto leaseholder threads, and consider counter claiming against them. Tortious interference either your lease.
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Eljayjay
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 22:15
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I did not know that voting buttons were available. So, congratulations on finding out about them.

In truth, however, if you take a look at other threads on here involving residential parking rights under a lease, you will see that the advice is always to defend a claim.

You really must heed the advice about acknowledging service of the claim immediately.

This post has been edited by Eljayjay: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 22:17
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hope8861
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 12:20
Post #23


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Just wanted to share the attached document with most of the extracts from my lease, still some others to capture to most of it is in here. More so, I am not sure whether the below extract has any substance:

A person (a "Third Party") who is not a party to this deed has no right under the Contracts
(Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 to enforce any term of this deed notwithstanding that any
such term may purport to confer or may be construed as conferring a benefit on such Third
Party AND this does not affect any right or remedy of such Third Party which exists or is
available apart from that Act provided that this exclusion shall not bind Esco who shall be
entitled to enforce the provisions of this Lease which relate to the Esco Service Installations
and the Energy Services Agreement


Attached File(s)
Attached File  Lease_Extracts.pdf ( 49.55K ) Number of downloads: 10
 
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Eljayjay
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:25
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Your extract says...

Subject to the Tenant paying the Tenant's Proportion the right to park a single private motor
vehicle on the Allocated Parking Space or such other space as may be allocated in place
thereof by the Landlord for the parking of a private motor vehicle or motor cycle which
complies with the restrictions set out in paragraphs 17 and 18 of Schedule Four subject to any
easement or rights granted or to be granted over or under the same to any Authority

The "Tenant's Proportion" is almost certainly defined near the beginning of the lease in a section headed "Definitions". I presume it means service charges.

The extract grants the Tenant, i.e. your fiancé, the right to park. It would probably be perverse for you not to be able to park a vehicle there on his behalf.

The extract does not require the Tenant to share that right with anyone else, e.g. the parking company. Without the Tenant's consent, any attempt by, say, the Landlord to make the Tenant share the right to park with, say, the parking company would be contrary to the legal principle of non-derogation from grant implied in every lease.

There is mention of "the restrictions set out in paragraphs 17 and 18 of Schedule Four". They appear to be concerned with the type or condition of the vehicle as opposed to the right to park. But, for peace of mind, what do they say?

As the Landlord or Management Company may have made other rules and/or regulations about parking, you need to search the lease for any clause giving them the power to make rules and/or regulations and then post what you find.

Your other extract says...

A person (a "Third Party") who is not a party to this deed has no right under the Contracts
(Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 to enforce any term of this deed notwithstanding that any
such term may purport to confer or may be construed as conferring a benefit on such Third
Party AND this does not affect any right or remedy of such Third Party which exists or is
available apart from that Act provided that this exclusion shall not bind Esco who shall be
entitled to enforce the provisions of this Lease which relate to the Esco Service Installations
and the Energy Services Agreement

Before that Act was passed, a person who was not a party to a contract could not enforce the contract's terms. The Act changed this situation in certain circumstances. In the case of your fiancé's lease, it is only a firm called Esco who can, as a third party, enforce its terms. Any rules and/or regulations made under a lease would be treated as part of the lease by a court. On that basis if some rules and/or regulations have been made purporting to allow a parking company to levy parking charges when a vehicle is parked in accordance with the lease, the extract would prevent the parking company from being able to enforce the parking charges.

This extract shows why we need a copy of the signed lease...

The Landlord may at any time during the construction and sale of the Estate vary or modify
any of the stipulations contained in this lease and the terms of this lease shall not operate to
impose any restriction on the manner in which the Landlord may deal with the Estate if such
variation or modification shall in the opinion of the Landlord (acting reasonably) be required to
accommodate the circumstances attaching to any Dwelling sold hereafter


So far, although we still need to be very thorough when it comes to examining the lease, the early signs are very encouraging.

This post has been edited by Eljayjay: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:44
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hope8861
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:45
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I would agree with everything you say.

In regards to paragraphs 17 & 18 it is in the attachment on my last post highlighted in red. But agree, this seems to be mainly aimed at the condition and abandonment of a vehicle.

Really appreciate the comments in what is quite an imtimidating situation, as I nearly just paid this to get rid of it!
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Eljayjay
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 14:54
Post #26


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OK. I had a little difficulty because of the lack of numbering, but I see where 17 & 18 are now.

The business model of many parking companies is to seek payment of parking charges, regardless of whether or not they are due, by any means at their disposal.

If it comforts you, I would mention that I successfully defended a claim brought against me by Parking & Property Management Limited.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 15:07
Post #27


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Have you done the acknowledgement of service yet? 19 days after the date on teh claim they can apply for a default judgement and you lose regardless of your defence. You would have another 14 days to finalise your defence so do the AoS NOW and the defence after.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 15:38
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QUOTE (hope8861 @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 15:45) *
Really appreciate the comments in what is quite an imtimidating situation, as I nearly just paid this to get rid of it!

Indeed, please don't encourage them... wink.gif

Assume they are reading this thread too - not that it helps them. Indeed, it should make them see sense.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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hope8861
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 18:22
Post #29


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Thanks for the support.

I have acknowledged the Claim and waiting to hear back whether it will go to a hearing or P&PM drop the claim.
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Jlc
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 18:53
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QUOTE (hope8861 @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 19:22) *
P&PM drop the claim.

Sadly they probably won't do this.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Eljayjay
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 20:03
Post #31


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Generally, dropping the claim is not part of their business model.

They often issue the claim without paying the court fee, hope that their victim caves in by settling an, if he/she soldiers on, they discontinue at the last possible moment.

So, what you now have to do is start preparing your defence. This is the point where getting hold of a copy of the final version of the lease becomes extremely important.

What I do know is that a complaint has been made about PPM's involvement in residential parking to the DVLA and has come to the attention of Mr Jesse Norman MP, the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Department of Transport.

I suspect that they would not like someone else, i.e. your fiancé, to drop Jesse Norman to complain about their activities where he lives.

[I should perhaps explain that I keep mentioning your fiancé simply because he is the leasehold owner of the flat and is, therefore, the person with rights under the lease.]

If your fiancé would like me to draft an email for him to send to Mr Norman, please do let me know.
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hope8861
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 20:27
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Hello Eljayjay

Yes please if you don’t mind, I am going to get my Fiancé to send this. Really appreciate the advice and support.

We now have a copy of the final version of the lease, going through it each night picking bits out.

Many Thanks smile.gif
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SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 23:43
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QUOTE (hope8861 @ Wed, 13 Jun 2018 - 19:22) *
Thanks for the support.

I have acknowledged the Claim and waiting to hear back whether it will go to a hearing or P&PM drop the claim.


After acknowledging the claim you should not be waiting for or expecting anything from the court. Defence time!


QUOTE
Unknown to myself & the Property
owner- when I have closed the vehicle it seems the wind has caught
the permit and blown it down the side of the vehicle seat.


Or MAYBE someone very close to the car later on, maybe someone with a book of tickets & a camera, but who knows, leaned on the car...
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hope8861
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 12:55
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Hello,

I have received a response from Gladstone’s who want to have a special direction which I believe is over the phone rather than a hearing, what do you all think ? I am inclined to refuse to have a formal hearing.
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hope8861
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 13:23
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Furthermore they request for Special Direction because of the cost to them relating to attending a court hearing.

Additionally they are welcoming offers to close this claim out. Currently writing a letter back and intend to:

- refuse special directions
- refuse any offer other than the withdrawal of the full claim
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hope8861
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:35
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Looking to respond to them with the below letter, not sure if its of any use but rejecting any of their requests, comments welcome.

To Whom It May Concern,

This is relating to claim number xxxx in response to the letter issued on the 13th June 2018. The letter sent on 13th June 2018 is titled as “Letter Before Claim”, in which I can challenge the parking ticket and provide a reason for non-payment up until 19th June 2018; however a letter from the Court had been received a fortnight prior to this letter being sent. Therefore, I am writing to you challenge your Client’s claim as well as to reject the request for Special Direct (Reference: xxxx) and wish to proceed with a court hearing if it is still your intention to continue this claim.

My challenge to this claim is based on the unreasonableness of the Claimant, following what was a genuine mistake of the permit unknowingly blowing off the dashboard to the side of the seat. I had permission to park in the space following a direct instruction from the Property owner (Mr Hope), with whom I stay with regularly stay with when working away from home as he’s my Fiancé, who will speak on my behalf at the hearing.

We tried to mediate with Property & Parking Management via a phone call and received what I personally deemed as a rude and abrupt response. Additionally, with Mr Hope, I have reverted to the Lease Contract following the purchase of the Property which has no mention of Property & Parking Management. Believing they may fall under contractually as a ‘Third Party’ within the Lease, there is no direction relating to any rights a Third Party has within this Contract, and under Primacy of Contract, I believe this overrides any case you and your Claimant has against me. My speaker at this hearing, Mr Joshua Hope, will have the Final Lease Contract present, which also demonstrates ownership of specific Car Park Space 105.

In respect to offers, I want to be very clear that I reject any offers other than the withdrawal of the full amount being claimed against myself. And I would much prefer to contest this at any hearing in person.

Lastly on behalf of my Fiancé Mr Hope, we would like to withdraw any services we have with Property & Parking Management relating to Car Parking Space 105. If confirmation of this can be issued back to myself would be greatly appreciated, but any tickets issued after the 22nd June will be sent back to the Claimant.

Kind Regards

This post has been edited by hope8861: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 14:35
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Eljayjay
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 15:56
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I shall take a look at your most recent posts shortly.

In the meantime, please find below the draft email for your fiancé to send to Jesse Norman at POCorrespondence@dft.gsi.gov.uk

I would suggest that your fiancé copies it to your local MP whose email address you will find here https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/contact-your-mp/

Obviously, if you have any questions on the draft email's contents, please do ask.



For the attention of:
Mr Jesse Norman MP
Parliamentary Under Secretary of State
Department for Transport


Dear Mr Norman,

I am sorry to have to write to you.

I must do so, however, because I believe you are responsible for the DVLA and the purpose of writing to you is to complain about the DVLA. My compaint is that the DVLA is willing to divulge the personal details of motorists who park on land governed by a lease in flagrant disregard for the terms of the lease. My complaint is also a complaint against a parking company, Parking & Property Management Limited, and its accredited trade association, the IPC.

I own and reside in a leasehold flat. My flat comes with an allocated parking space. My lease grants me the exclusive right to use and to authorise others to use my allocated parking space. I paid for that right when I purchased my lease. My lease does not require me to pay any further amounts for parking. My lease does not oblige me to share that right with, for example, a parking company. In addition, my lease confers no right on a parking company or any other third party (with the single exception of an energy company) to enforce any of my lease’s terms.

Parking & Property Management Limited has, however, erected some signage in the car park. In effect, its signage says that, if a driver parks in the car park without displaying a permit, he/she enters into a contract with the parking company to pay it £100. The signage also mentions that, if the driver does not pay the charge and his/her name and address remain unknown to the parking company, it will pursue the vehicle’s keeper for the alleged debt under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As you are no doubt aware, in this event, the personal details of the vehicle’s registered keeper are obtained from the DVLA.

The parking company has obtained my fiancée’s personal details for an occasion when her vehicle was parked in my parking space with my consent fully in accordance with the terms of my lease.

If I had written to the DVLA about this matter, I am sure that they would have attempted to fob me off with something along the following lines:-

This legislation allows vehicle keeper details to be disclosed to third parties who can demonstrate that they have a reasonable cause to receive it. Although reasonable cause is not defined in legislation, the Government's policy is clear. Requests should relate to the vehicle or its use following incidents where there may be liability on the part of the driver.

Vehicle keeper information is disclosed to private parking companies only where they are members of an appropriate Accredited Trade Association (ATA). This requirement is to ensure that operators requesting data from the DVLA are legitimate companies that operate within a code of practice. The ATAs carry out strict checks on companies before allowing them to become members and have processes in place to monitor compliance with their code of practice. If a member of the scheme does not comply with the code of practice, it may be suspended or expelled, during which time no data will be provided to it by the DVLA.

The fact is that, when my fiancée parked in my parking space, it was not the case that “there may be liability on the part of the driver”. Indeed, the opposite is true: there was absolutely no possibility of there being any liability on the part of the driver.

Although it may be true that Parking & Property Management Limited is a legitimate company, that it operates in accordance with its ATA’s code of practice, and that its ATA carried out strict checks before allowing it to become a member, the code of practice is fatally flawed. For example, in the case of a leasehold property, the code of practice does not place any onus on a parking company to check that, when entering into a contract with a purported landowner, the two parties to the contract are not riding roughshod over the rights of the leaseholder.

Without undertaking a full review of the terms of the relevant lease, the parking company should not presume that it has any cause to operate on the land. It is only after a thorough review of the lease has been carried out that a parking company can have “reasonable cause” to impose a parking scheme on the land. I would suggest to you that, where a parking company does not have “reasonable cause” to impose a parking scheme on the land, it cannot possibly have “reasonable cause” to apply to the DVLA for the personal details of the registered keepers of vehicles parked on the land.

In my own case, the very name of the parking company, Parking & Property Management Limited, implies that it is knowledgeable, perhaps even expert, about parking and property matters. Whether or not that is true, it is fair to expect that, before a parking company commences its operations on any land, it has taken adequate steps to ensure adequate steps to ensure that it is not flagrantly disregarding the rights of others. Parking & Property Management Limited is negligent in this respect.

When it comes to my allocated parking space, Parking & Property Management Limited is nothing more than a serial trespasser and nuisance. Its ATA, the IPC, is ineffective. Both organisations are, in my opinion, utterly disingenuous.

Surely, when so much has been said and done recently about GDPR and the need to protect the personal data of citizens, you must be hugely concerned that the DVLA is so gullible as to believe that the actions of parking companies and their ATAs and that the requirements of their codes of practice adequately protect innocent members of the public.

I very much look forward to receiving a reply which respects the rights of leaseholders.

Yours sincerely,

<leaseholder’s name>
<leaseholder’s address>

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Eljayjay
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 16:46
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Taking your posts #35, #36 and #37 together...

Do not send your "To Whom It May Concern" letter. Gladstones will almost certainly ignore it. It is not demanding enough. In addition, as you are an honest person, you have little idea of the process and the letter makes that show.

From this point on, it really is all about putting together a good defence. After that, your fiancé and yourself will need to produce a witness statements and exhibits and a statement of legal arguments. None of this is as hard as it may seem at this moment and you can count on help from this forum,

You need to download a form N180 from https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...ll-claims-track

Where it says "In the" at the top, enter Northampton CCBC.

Obviously, enter the case number and your name in the relevant boxes.

Where it says "who is", leave 1st and Defendant showing.

Tick No where it says:-
Do you agree to this case being referred to the
Small Claims Mediation Service?

Complete the Your Contact Details section

Tick Yes where it says:-
Do you agree that the small claims track is the appropriate track for
this case?

At D1, enter the name of the court where you wish the case to be heard and the words "I am an unrepresented defendant and this is the most convenient court for me."

At D2, tick No.

At D3, enter 2 (i.e. yourself and your fiancé).

Complete D4 as appropriate.
So, if you and/or your fiancé have booked some holdays, tick Yes
and give the dates.
If you book some holidays later, advise the court to which the case will be allocated. Avoid the hearing date if it has been set by then.

Tick whatever is appropriate where it says:-
Will you be using an interpreter at the hearing either for yourself or
for a witness?

In the space at the bottom of the page, write:
PLEASE NOTE THAT
I DO NOT AGREE THAT THE CASE SHOULD BE HEARD ON THE PAPERS ALONE.

Sign the form in the box.

Below the box, lease 1st and Defendant showing.

Scan the whole form.

If you do not know CCBC's email address, phone them and ask for the email address to which a Directions Questionnaire form N180 should be sent.

Attach it to an email to CCBC and copy it to Gladstones. The email should be headed "Directions Questionnaire: Case No. <case number> and read as follows:-


Claim No. <case numbe>
Issue Date <date of claim>
Claimant PARKING AND PROPERTY MANAGEMENT LIMITED
Claimant’s reference <ppm's ref>
Defendant <your name>


Dear CCBC,

As you will see, I am sending this email not only to yourselves but also to <name of person at Gladstones who sent you their email> at Gladstones Solicitors Limited.

As requested, I attach the Directions Questionnaire (N180) duly completed by myself.

Given the contents of an email received from <name of person at Gladstones who sent you their email> on <date of email>, I would ask you to note that I do not agree that the claim should be dealt with on the papers alone.

I look forward to hearing from you again in due course.

Yours faithfully,

<your name>

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Eljayjay
post Thu, 14 Jun 2018 - 17:01
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In the draft email to Jesse Norman, the two paragraphs beginning "The legislation allows..." and "Vehicle keeper information..." should be indented.
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