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Appeal hearing confusion, Council parking ticket
DrXXX
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 19:27
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Hello,
I'm new here and have only just found this forum, but I need some advice before Monday please.
To cut a long story short, I got a parking ticket, I did the representations etc. which were rejected so went to appeal with the parking tribunal.
The telephone hearing date was yesterday, but 5 mins AFTER the scheduled start, I got a phonecall telling me the council wanted to be part of the hearing, but they couldn't make that time. (Despite the date being set for over a month).
So the secretary offered me another time on the next day for the hearing, which the council could make but I couldn't make, then they offered another date in 6 weeks time.
I said that it was unacceptable, so I wanted it deciding by the adjudicator now instead, but that I wanted to write my points down which I would have said during the hearing.
The adjudicators office phoned me back and said the adjudicator agreed to that.

So I sent written representations in, but today I got another call saying that they had received my written submissions, but the adjudicator now thought a hearing would be better, which during the course of the phonecall changed to the adjudicator wanted to give me a chance to have a hearing!!

Then they initially said a hearing could be arranged for Monday or Tuesday next week, then throughout the conversation they attempted to push it on to within the next 2-3 weeks.

I believe that this is entirely to accommodate the council and wondered if anyone else has had this kind of treatment?
It seems very irregular and I'm wondering if I have to accept it, especially when the adjudicator initially said that I could change it to be decided by the adjudicator only, instead of delaying the hearing.

I've wasted a days holiday and will have to book another one.

They're phoning me back on Monday to try to set a date, so if anyone could give me advice before then, it would be great.
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post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 19:27
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DancingDad
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 09:11
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My suspicion is that someone at TPT looked at your written appeal points and saw something that they thought would lose but could be a winner if explored in a telephone hearing.
You can demand that the decision is made on papers alone but given that they are pushing for a phone hearing, I wouldn't.
I'd also say that patience is a virtue, I know you probably want this over and done with but a delay for the hearing will make little difference.

For any specific advice, we will need to see the PCN and all correspondence, including your written appeal.
Council evidence should also show a summary.... let's see that pls.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 09:33
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See the Schedule to the regs:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3482/schedule/made
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DrXXX
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 15:29
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Thank you for the replies, I do appreciate your time.
Im representing a friend who is unable to do this for herself, so I would love to have the benefit of some advice on the parking ticket, (wish I'd found this site beforehand), but most of the representations are very personal and I don't think she would want them to be put on the internet.
Would there be any point putting the rest of the documents up without the informal and formal challenges?
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 17:08
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Yes post them all, redact any personal details. Give us a synopsis of the challenge, reps and appeal


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DrXXX
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 12:28
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The informal challenge basically related to my friend's disability and how she just didn't notice the parking restrictions because of it. Basically the same for the formal.
The written submissions to the appeal highlight how the lines are virtually worn away, so it's no wonder she didn't notice the parking restrictions sign, it just looked like a normal roadside parking area. Additionally, the notes that the council uploaded of the parking officer, say yes to lines and signs being ok, which from the parking officers own photos is clearly not true.
I also questioned the start time, but only at appeal level, because looking in my calendar I noticed that friend came to my kids assembly at school with me that day, so I'm fairly certain that she couldn't have arrived in town until at least 10 o'clock.
Additionally I ran out of word space raising the appeal, so added a message after to clarify the worn away lines, but really they were the reason my friend didn't notice the parking restrictions.
I know I've probably made a right dogs dinner of it, I didn't have a clue how to go about it really.

This post has been edited by DrXXX: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 13:18
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DrXXX
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 12:47
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Sorry I'm having some difficulty getting things to upload. I've only got an old phone to do it on, so maybe that's the problem.

Maybe now

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This post has been edited by DrXXX: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 12:56
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DrXXX
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 13:03
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2

This post has been edited by DrXXX: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 13:04
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ford poplar
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 13:17
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We need to see reps made to Council and know the disability relied on.

This post has been edited by ford poplar: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 13:17
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DrXXX
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 13:27
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Hi thanks for your reply, as I explained, the reps are very personal and I don't have permission to post them from my friend.
The disability is not a physical one, but one which the council are fully aware of and which means my friend will never again be able to work again.
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Neil B
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 13:47
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QUOTE (DrXXX @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 14:27) *
Hi thanks for your reply, as I explained, the reps are very personal and I don't have permission to post them from my friend.
The disability is not a physical one, but one which the council are fully aware of and which means my friend will never again be able to work again.

Yes you explained but it's unhelpful.
We are all human beings and not in the least interested in the identity of the appellant or making judgements
about disabilities.
Perhaps you should seek their permission to elaborate.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 14:09
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Neil make a good point, let me explain why its important. Adjudicators cannot consider discretion, so what we would want to look for is a breach of the equalities act or The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled Persons) (England) Regulations 2000

does your friend have or are they entitled to a blue badge ?

lines and signs don't look as though they would win for you, but the adjudicator obviously wants to hear from or question you so there is something in your written submissions that they want to explore


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DancingDad
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 14:56
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Got any of the council photos pls?
Signs and lines being worn can be very subjective and not a guaranteed win but lets see what we have please.

Re the disability, we don't care what it is, only if it will help the situation.
We also would like to see if there could be any possibility of persuading an adjudicator that the council failed to consider either points made or indeed the exercise of discretion. But cannot unless we can see what was sent and what the rejections were.
Have a chat with your friend and get permission please.
We will never likely find out who they are and TBH, we don't care, we just try to help anyone who comes on here.
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DrXXX
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 15:16
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Council photos.
Our photo shows the bay almost empty, so you can clearly see that the lines are virtually none existent.
There is no yellow line at all and no signs entering the one way street telling you there's any controlled parking.
Thanks so much for your time everyone, im so extremely grateful.

Also, having now found this site and read some things, it seems as if there could be an argument that the council have not even properly considered the reps, since their rejection letter in response, basically says words to the effect of,
you've used this argument once and we've said no already in our previous letter.

This post has been edited by DrXXX: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 15:24
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DancingDad
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 15:36
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Having seen those photos and assuming disability may affect awareness, I would say better then 50/50 on inadequate lines.
No guarantees but would not be surprised if an adjudicator who is feeling sympathetic did not use the wear as reason to cancel.

Re considering.
A council must (that is MUST) consider whatever is put forward at all stages.
If the formal Notice of Rejection simply says we've already said no, that would be evidence they didn't but it depends on wording.
Which you may not be reading objectively ?
Also keep in mind that there is no duty to actually mention all points.
But a rejection that does not or that uses a template "we have considered all points..." runs the risk of failing to consider.
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 17:00
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Here?-----------------

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Lawkhol...33;4d-1.9078083

Looking at the relevant Order (which I think is the one below).I am not sure if that sign is appropriate for a limited waiting parking space because that Order states:-


Limited Waiting Parking Places
At all times during which a vehicle is left in a limited waiting parking place during the
permitted hours and for more than the maximum permitted stay, there shall be displayed in
a conspicuous manner on the said vehicle a valid residents parking permit, a valid special
parking permit, a valid visitors parking permit or a valid parking dispensation issued in
accordance with the provisions of this Order so that all the particulars referred to in Articles
18 and 29 of this Order are readily visible from the front or near side of the vehicle.

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...adford/BQ05.pdf

Mick
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DrXXX
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 17:33
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Yes that's the place. Just a note that those Google images are over a year old. The signs are the same but the lines are very much worse, in fact almost gone.

This post has been edited by DrXXX: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 17:52
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DrXXX
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 17:47
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[quote name='DancingDad' date='Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 16:36' post='1393325'
Re considering.
A council must (that is MUST) consider whatever is put forward at all stages.
If the formal Notice of Rejection simply says we've already said no, that would be evidence they didn't but it depends on wording.
Which you may not be reading objectively ?
Also keep in mind that there is no duty to actually mention all points.
But a rejection that does not or that uses a template "we have considered all points..." runs the risk of failing to consider.
[/quote]

The letter is basically the same as the challenge response, only bit different says
"We have looked into your case and read the previous letters. Although we understand that you feel strongly about this point, we do not have anything new to add to the answer we gave in our previous letter."
You're probably right, I'm not sure if I am being objective, as I can see the way that my friend is affected by this ticket, so maybe others can comment if that paragraph sounds reasonable or not?
Thanks everyone for your help and time.
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 18:06
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OP----the point I made in post 16 was about the inadequacy of the sign because it does not mention the exemptions I quoted.

Therefore the Council have failed to provide an adequate traffic sign (which reflects the purposes of the Order) and thereby have failed in their duty under Reg 18 The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996.

Traffic signs

18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

(b )the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force; and

© in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions.

This is a good ground to raise at adjudication.

Mick
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peterguk
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 18:06
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QUOTE (DrXXX @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 13:28) *
The written submissions to the appeal highlight how the lines are virtually worn away, so it's no wonder she didn't notice the parking restrictions sign, it just looked like a normal roadside parking area.


Post up the council photos and a link to GSV.


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