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Police gave stopped me for speeding, but never caught me speeding, only "calculated it"
Tin Can
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 10:56
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Yesterday I was driving along the motorway and saw a police car infront of me. Naturally I slowed down and didn't want to overtake them as they were doing the speed limit. This continued for around 15 minutes I think until they turned off.


After they turned off, I continued along my journey. 10-15 minutes later after I slowed down and pulled into the slow lane to go into an average speed check tunnel (I usually go into the slower lane here as its only dual carriageway and don't want people up my arse through the tunnel).


After I had slowed down the police came up behind me and flashed their lights and I pulled off onto a slip-road, and onto the hard shoulder.


Long story short, license etc etc. They told me they stopped me on suspicion of speeding as they pulled off to let me go, then caught up with me and calculated how fast and how long it took them to catch up with me as me speeding. After handing my license they also asked me some questions that I found odd, but may have just been small talk.


I have a GB license, British passport but I would consider myself to be Irish, and it is where I am from and sound like I am from. One of the officers asked me after receiving my license,"Where I was originally from" which felt a bit odd and then went on to go and speak about how the Irish police would have done the same. Obviously, it was probably nothing but didn't sit well with me due to past experiences.


The crux of my argument is, if I contested it could they do anything? They didnt catch me on a camera, or to my knowledge ever see me speeding, only "calculated it"


Thanks!
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post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 10:56
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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 11:16
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To be convicted of speeding on a motorway only requires the opinion of one witness that you were speeding, although that is rarely used.

Be assured the chances of this progressing to court are very high and then you would have to cast reasonable doubt on the allegation so consider how you would answer a question such as 'how fast do you think you were going then'.

the comment about where you were from sounds like normal polite conversation to me.


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Tin Can
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 12:20
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 12:16) *
To be convicted of speeding on a motorway only requires the opinion of one witness that you were speeding, although that is rarely used.

Be assured the chances of this progressing to court are very high and then you would have to cast reasonable doubt on the allegation so consider how you would answer a question such as 'how fast do you think you were going then'.

the comment about where you were from sounds like normal polite conversation to me.


Thanks for getting back to me. I guess if they asked me how fast do I think I was going I couldn't really say I was doing under the speed limit? The issue is I understand the science behind their calculation. Is it on me would you say to tell them how fast I think I was actually going? In my head its mainly I don't understand what evidence they have that's admissable to court.

Thanks!
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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 12:36
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Broadly speaking nearly all evidence is admissible in court, what you're really asking is what evidence will the court accept and what they will reject.

It's for the bench on the day to decide whether the evidence they provide meets the criteria of beyond reasonable doubt and with your case there is a lot of relevant minutia that can have a big effect that we don't have available to us.


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Logician
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 13:43
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I would be very suspicious of such a calculation, unless they have some sort of app to do that for them it is quite likely they calculated their own average speed!

We often hear of police saying something like "We had to do xx mph to catch up with you" which certainly does not prove the motorist was doing xx mph.


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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 13:47
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QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 14:43) *
it is quite likely they calculated their own average speed!

If that started from just behind the OPs car (before they turned off) to just behind it again (before they stopped it) that wouldn't be an issue though.


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Atomic Tomato
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 16:51
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 14:47) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 14:43) *
it is quite likely they calculated their own average speed!

If that started from just behind the OPs car (before they turned off) to just behind it again (before they stopped it) that wouldn't be an issue though.

But surely if they left and rejoined the road they would have had to cover a greater distance and therefore would have had a faster average speed. Naturally it would depend on the difference in distance to know if this was significant.
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cp8759
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 17:48
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QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 14:43) *
I would be very suspicious of such a calculation, unless they have some sort of app to do that for them it is quite likely they calculated their own average speed!

We often hear of police saying something like "We had to do xx mph to catch up with you" which certainly does not prove the motorist was doing xx mph.

I too would be extremely suspicious of this calculation, it sounds like a load of bollocks to me unless they have a system in the car that can do a time and distance calculation for them, or unless they already knew the time it would take to travel from the junction where they turned off to a certain known point where they caught up with you when travelling at the speed limit (due to calculations have been previously done) and could thus infer that as it took you less than the expected time, you must have been speeding.

However I've never heard of the police using such methods in the UK and this possibility seems unlikely in the extreme.


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mdann52
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 17:59
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QUOTE (Atomic Tomato @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 17:51) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 14:47) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 14:43) *
it is quite likely they calculated their own average speed!

If that started from just behind the OPs car (before they turned off) to just behind it again (before they stopped it) that wouldn't be an issue though.

But surely if they left and rejoined the road they would have had to cover a greater distance and therefore would have had a faster average speed. Naturally it would depend on the difference in distance to know if this was significant.

Given they could well have used VASCAR (or a similar device), couldn't they have started the time calculation when the OP passed a given point, and started the distance calculation when they passed the same point?

Also, wouldn't the distance being longer actually reduce the average speed (given it is distance divided by time)?

I'm also suspicious about the calculation as given, however without seeing the officers statements or how this was calculated, I don't think this can be discarded as definitely not possible or accurate yet.

This post has been edited by mdann52: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 18:00
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andy_foster
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 18:29
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I'm not convinced that an average speed check that started on a motorway and finished on a dual carriageway would hold up in court as they are different offences - s. 172(4) RTRA 1984 for motorway and s. 89(1) RTRA 1984 for most other roads


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mickR
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 18:56
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I thought it was all motorway
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cp8759
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 20:06
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QUOTE (mdann52 @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 18:59) *
Given they could well have used VASCAR (or a similar device), couldn't they have started the time calculation when the OP passed a given point, and started the distance calculation when they passed the same point?

Surely they would need to register the time that the OP's vehicle was at two points in order to calculate the distance travelled and hence its speed?

QUOTE (mdann52 @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 18:59) *
Also, wouldn't the distance being longer actually reduce the average speed (given it is distance divided by time)?

We don't know by how much the police exceeded the limit to catch up with him

QUOTE (mdann52 @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 18:59) *
I'm also suspicious about the calculation as given, however without seeing the officers statements or how this was calculated, I don't think this can be discarded as definitely not possible or accurate yet.

We don't know enough to give a definitive view. Tin Can, did they say what the "calculated" speed was?


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mickR
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 20:22
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I would have just one question to mr Plod...
Exactly how did you acurately calculate the alledged speeding so quickly.?

This post has been edited by mickR: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 20:22
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cp8759
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 20:27
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QUOTE (mickR @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 21:22) *
Exactly how did you acurately calculate the alledged speeding so quickly.?

Quite, it's the sort of thing you'd expect them to do back at the office, rather than at the roadside.


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Tin Can
post Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 22:35
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 21:06) *
QUOTE (mdann52 @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 18:59) *
Given they could well have used VASCAR (or a similar device), couldn't they have started the time calculation when the OP passed a given point, and started the distance calculation when they passed the same point?

Surely they would need to register the time that the OP's vehicle was at two points in order to calculate the distance travelled and hence its speed?

QUOTE (mdann52 @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 18:59) *
Also, wouldn't the distance being longer actually reduce the average speed (given it is distance divided by time)?

We don't know by how much the police exceeded the limit to catch up with him

QUOTE (mdann52 @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 18:59) *
I'm also suspicious about the calculation as given, however without seeing the officers statements or how this was calculated, I don't think this can be discarded as definitely not possible or accurate yet.

We don't know enough to give a definitive view. Tin Can, did they say what the "calculated" speed was?


They said my calculated speed was 88.2 MPH

Thanks for everyones advice and opinions. I asked a friend of mine who is a police officer and said traffic police may have worked this out, but as a normal police officer wouldn't have personally done it.

She recommended I wait for the letter as they may not decide to go through with it based on the evidence. I wrote to Hampshire police saying I was confused on the evidence and wanted some clarification too.

My dad was previously stopped for something similar but the officer admitted he couldn't personally prove it so just asked him to not speed for example.
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cp8759
post Tue, 14 Jul 2020 - 09:07
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That speed seems very exact and makes me wonder whether they paced you at a distance using a device such as vascar.


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4by4
post Tue, 14 Jul 2020 - 09:14
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 18:29) *
I'm not convinced that an average speed check that started on a motorway and finished on a dual carriageway would hold up in court as they are different offences - s. 172(4) RTRA 1984 for motorway and s. 89(1) RTRA 1984 for most other roads


Think the OP might mean a two lane section not a dual carriageway.

It’s quite possible that the police left the carriageway at an off ramp and immediately rejoined. Once rejoined they could easily catch back up to the OP and start a Vascar (or modern equivalent) follow check. This would provide an accurate calculated speed.

The OP freely admits that he only moves to the left lane when on narrow sections of motorway and makes reference to people tailgating him. This makes me wonder how observant to the rear he was, when happily travelling down the middle lane of a wider section. How long had the police car been a small distance behind him carrying out the speed check?

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The Rookie
post Tue, 14 Jul 2020 - 09:55
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 14 Jul 2020 - 10:07) *
That speed seems very exact and makes me wonder whether they paced you at a distance using a device such as vascar.

That was my thought, a time and distance device, typically called VASCAR (like vacuum cleaners are called Hoovers) even though that's now defunct.


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cp8759
post Tue, 14 Jul 2020 - 09:59
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I suppose the key question then is whether the measured speed is likely to be correct. Tin Can, is there a chance the calculated speed might be accurate?


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mdann52
post Tue, 14 Jul 2020 - 19:36
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 21:06) *
QUOTE (mdann52 @ Mon, 13 Jul 2020 - 18:59) *
Given they could well have used VASCAR (or a similar device), couldn't they have started the time calculation when the OP passed a given point, and started the distance calculation when they passed the same point?

Surely they would need to register the time that the OP's vehicle was at two points in order to calculate the distance travelled and hence its speed?


Indeed - but by the OPs account they caught back up with him so they could well have stopped it at that point - I could have made this clearer in my thinking I suspect. I was just giving my 2c as a lot of the replies were going down an avenue which cause the OP to think there was no chance of this being correct when it was not outside the realms of all possibilities (with me making an assumption as it was a motorway stop it was likely to be a traffic officer conducting it!)
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