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PCN Southampton Vincents Walk Southampton
Generalbear
post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 19:44
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Hey all
Today received a PCN for a bus lane violation. Having never received one in the 20 years I've been a road user.

I've included a pic of the pcn

I believe that there is an issue with the signage and I don't agree with contravention being fair
As it is located at the end of a road user as the main terminus for the buses, the buses block the only signs
I have a pic to prove this
Meaning once buses are at the stops and moving through the road
You don't know it exists untill its too late , as in this case I have over taken a bus without seeing the sign, once ive passed the bus I'm in the base lane/ gate.
This new and only implemented end of Feb this year ( discovered after pcn)
Previously a closed bus lane and the traffic lit due to road works.

Untill today i also have no idea what a bus gate was i did see the words on the road but i assumed it was for the buses as i have only ever heard of a bus lane

Any ideas

This post has been edited by Generalbear: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 19:59
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post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 19:44
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Generalbear
post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 22:39
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PCN Full version


[/quote]
To get to Vincent's walk you have to pass a sign saying it's a no through route. I'm just saying I don't think an appeal based on the signage will work, but it's up to you whether you want to challenge on that basis. If you re-upload the PCN I'll check if there's any scope for a technical appeal.
[/quote]

That sign is long gone mate, the street view you are looking at is out of date


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cp8759
post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 22:40
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The top of page 2 is out of focus / unreadable.


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Generalbear
post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 22:53
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should now be readable


If youd care to look at this link this is how that exact piece of road looked up to the end of feb this year

https://host-students.com/starting-uni-make...pton-home-home/

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cp8759
post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 23:15
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The PCN looks compliant, I'm sorry to say my advice is to pay the discounted penalty. Obviously whether you want to fight it based on the signage is up to you, but I fear that if you go down that route you'll just end up paying £60 instead of £30.


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Generalbear
post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 23:20
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Thank you for your time, advice and opinion. it really is much appreciated
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 14 Jul 2018 - 23:41
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Here's the DfT approval for lines and signs:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4412.pdf

OP--have a good look at the schematic and make sure the signs are positioned correctly. If not then we may have an unenforceable Bus Gate.

Otherwise the discount looks attractive.

Mick
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Generalbear
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 08:22
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Mick
There is a sign missing from the schematic you provided above
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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 12:08
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QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 09:22) *
Mick
There is a sign missing from the schematic you provided above

I think you're referring to the sign at s2, which is indeed missing. You could appeal on this basis, the problem you have is it is not a condition of the authorisation that the sign at s2 must be present in order for the signs at s1 to be authorised. So you're still left having to persuade the adjudicator that the signs did not provide adequate guidance. Personally I think this is unlikely to work, but at least if you decide to fight this anyway you now have something to argue.


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Generalbear
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 12:25
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Forgive my ignorance, but does this not mean that all terms laid out need to be met inorder for it to be leagal

"5. Directs, without predudice to any statutory provision to the like effect, that it is a condtion of it authorisation that the errection of the authorised plate and the placing of the autorised at or near the the said sites shall continue to have the effect only untill such a day ..."

the wording seems to imply to me that the for the conditions authorised in the TRO to in effect the signs need to be placed in accordance to the diagram, else it would not be in effect?
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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 12:31
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QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 13:25) *
Forgive my ignorance, but does this not mean that all terms laid out need to be met inorder for it to be leagal

"5. Directs, without predudice to any statutory provision to the like effect, that it is a condtion of it authorisation that the errection of the authorised plate and the placing of the autorised at or near the the said sites shall continue to have the effect only untill such a day ..."

the wording seems to imply to me that the for the conditions authorised in the TRO to in effect the signs need to be placed in accordance to the diagram, else it would not be in effect?

No, that paragraph just means that the Secretary of State can, on one month's notice, revoke the authorisation.


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Generalbear
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 12:36
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But suely the acceptance of the TRO and its design is binding and if that design is not followed it is there fore not authorised
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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 12:39
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QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 13:36) *
But suely the acceptance of the TRO and its design is binding and if that design is not followed it is there fore not authorised

The authorisation is just than, it authorises the authority to use those signs, it doesn't require them to.

The TRO is a different document that would have been drafted by the council, you can have a look on https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/ to see if you can find the right one or failing that you can ask the council to provide a copy. If you compare the restrictions created by the TRO to the restrictions conveyed by the signs and they don't match, you might have more solid grounds of appeal.


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Generalbear
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 12:46
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Is this what i am looking for?

file:///C:/Users/andyt/AppData/Local/Temp/TRO-Bus-Lanes-Bus-Only-Street-and-Bus-Gates-Order-2017-1.pdf
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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 13:03
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QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 13:46) *
Is this what i am looking for?

file:///C:/Users/andyt/AppData/Local/Temp/TRO-Bus-Lanes-Bus-Only-Street-and-Bus-Gates-Order-2017-1.pdf

Assuming you mean https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-Order-2017.pdf then yes, that looks like the right one. The provision for Vincent's Walk is on page 9.


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Generalbear
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 13:30
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What does that show
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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 13:36
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QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 14:30) *
What does that show

This:


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Generalbear
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 13:54
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Does mention signage or anything though
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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 14:06
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QUOTE (Generalbear @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 14:54) *
Does mention signage or anything though

They key question is, does the signage adequately convey the restrictions spelt out in the TRO. In my opinion it does and I would not advise appealing. Whether you want to challenge it is now up to you.


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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 14:40
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My view is that, if the Council map/schematic was submitted to the DfT, then that is the number of signs the Council undertook, as part of the approval, to provide.

The authorisation gives the Council the number of signs, scope on where these signs can be situated and confirms their relative position.

Now, can we say the missing sign is important? Does it act as the advanced warning sign to enable drivers to effect an early U-Turn?

If so, the signage is defective and the DfT authority for this set up is compromised.

Likewise the TRO is missing any reference to the Bus Lanes legislation of 2005. One might be in contravention of the TRO but is one in contravention of the enforcement legislation?

Mick
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Generalbear
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 14:46
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" ikewise the TRO is missing any reference to the Bus Lanes legislation of 2005. One might be in contravention of the TRO but is one in contravention of the enforcement legislation?"

In plain english please mick smile.gif

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